General 10m rifle questions

[Graemevw]

Been playing with my original 75 again today and it's thrown up a couple of questions. All unrelated, all probably pretty simple.

First off, point of aim. I shoot bell and 6 yard but also have some 10m 5 spot cards. Thought I'd try one today, see how much harder it is (37 out of 50, not much worse than my 5 yard scores today!)
I noticed though that my shots were going high. I didn't adjust the sights. I expected drop. I guess this means the pellet is still rising at that distance or maybe I'm shooting upwards. What should the height of the center bull be?

Secondly, my anschutz adjustable iris doesn't quite fit nicely on either of my diopters (original 75 diopter and diana 82 diopter). I only need a little more distance. I could make a small spacer so it doesn't screw into the diopter as far but that seems a little like a bodge. Are there extensions available to space the rear iris away from the diopter?

Thirdly, I'm a bit sick of element inserts so have been looking at adjustable front elements as I can't settle on one size that works for bell and paper targets.
The issue is, my original 75 has a stupid front sight so nothing is going to screw into it. The original sight slips over the barrel and is held by a roll pin.
My plan is to make a new one (or modify one if anyone has an original 75 front sight for sale). Then I can cut dove tails into it and fit a new front sight.
If I can find a spare 75 sight I might even be able to bore it out and tap it m18 x 0.5.
If I do the dovetail thing, what sizes are they normally? I see you buy front sights for your specific make. But I can't find any info on what makes have what size dovetails.
Old anschutz front sights seem plentiful, might make sense to make them whatever size they are.

Edit to add one more query if I may.
I've been trying to get my head around this staring target shooting thing for about 5 or 6 weeks now. I'm starting to feel it in my back a little. I wouldn't say it's pain yet, just a niggling beginning of an ache. 5 years ago I had spinal surgery for a badly ruptured disc that I'd lived with for 20 years!
As im only really shooting at home and a bit of bell target at the club I don't really want to go down the road of shooting jackets. Has anyone tried any kind of back support? The usual neoprene wrap around type thing.

Thanks.

[DM1964]

Does your iris have the nut on the back, if it does slacken it and unscrew then screw the iris in to the correct length and then tighten the nut, if it doesn't have one, I am sure you can find a nut that fits the thread to do this, the thread should be 8mm

[Graemevw]

Does your iris have the nut on the back, if it does slacken it and unscrew then screw the iris in to the correct length and then tighten the nut, if it doesn't have one, I am sure you can find a nut that fits the thread to do this, the thread should be 8mm

Doesn't seem to have. It has the thread for the diopter fitting, it then steps up to a bigger thread for the rear plate, which I assume just clamps a blinder if used. It then seems to just be the rear of the iris. Doesn't seem to adjust for length. It's quite old, says West Germany!
It fits without the rear blinder clamping ring (if that's what it is) but I've been experimenting with blinders and I can't with this set up.

[RobF]

First off, point of aim. I shoot bell and 6 yard but also have some 10m 5 spot cards. Thought I'd try one today, see how much harder it is (37 out of 50, not much worse than my 5 yard scores today!)
I noticed though that my shots were going high. I didn't adjust the sights. I expected drop. I guess this means the pellet is still rising at that distance or maybe I'm shooting upwards. What should the height of the center bull be?

...

Edit to add one more query if I may.
I've been trying to get my head around this staring target shooting thing for about 5 or 6 weeks now. I'm starting to feel it in my back a little. I wouldn't say it's pain yet, just a niggling beginning of an ache. 5 years ago I had spinal surgery for a badly ruptured disc that I'd lived with for 20 years!
As im only really shooting at home and a bit of bell target at the club I don't really want to go down the road of shooting jackets. Has anyone tried any kind of back support? The usual neoprene wrap around type thing.

Thanks.

The pellet is always falling, but close in you're trying to defeat the distance between the sights and the bore. For a 12ft-lb rifle it's around 25-30yds, so anything closer than this will seem like its dropping, and the closer you get the more the drop. It's a bit hard to explain in words for me, but with a drawing it's more simple to understand. So short answer, that's not unusual.

ISSF 10m targets are 1.4m at the centre +/- 5cm

The 10m position demands your back curves in both directions and as we get older our core becomes weaker and it's easy to have back issues as your body pulls your spine around. If stuff hurts stop. Especially if you've had a back injury. Seek medical advice. I'm a qualified county coach and whilst you might get all sorts of advice you want it to come from someone medically qualified and not someone just qualified to use the internet.

Shooting jackets are there for that reason, to reduce potential injury in sustained periods of shooting. But my advice would be for someone qualified to check out your position as well so you're not putting yourself under undue strain. You may need to get a professional to suggest exercises to strengthen important muscle groups.

[Graemevw]

The pellet is always falling, but close in you're trying to defeat the distance between the sights and the bore. For a 12ft-lb rifle it's around 25-30yds, so anything closer than this will seem like its dropping, and the closer you get the more the drop. It's a bit hard to explain in words for me, but with a drawing it's more simple to understand. So short answer, that's not unusual.

ISSF 10m targets are 1.4m at the centre +/- 5cm

The 10m position demands your back curves in both directions and as we get older our core becomes weaker and it's easy to have back issues as your body pulls your spine around. If stuff hurts stop. Especially if you've had a back injury. Seek medical advice. I'm a qualified county coach and whilst you might get all sorts of advice you want it to come from someone medically qualified and not someone just qualified to use the internet.

Shooting jackets are there for that reason, to reduce potential injury in sustained periods of shooting. But my advice would be for someone qualified to check out your position as well so you're not putting yourself under undue strain. You may need to get a professional to suggest exercises to strengthen important muscle groups.

Thanks. Your points about position and backs is interesting.
I spent 20nyears using the wrong muscles as half my back muscles locked up to protect my spinal cord! Took years after my operation to get to anything normal.

I suspect the position I'm in now is my spine will do things I probably shouldn't do with it.
Also, as I'm not that steady yet I find I can improve that by pushing my back into what may be a bad position.

I tend to have my right hip slightly behind me so I rotate a tiny bit anti-clockwise, and lean back, and lean over my right hip a little. So I'm twisting in 3 directions. I also seem to be letting my lower spine dip in to a point where is basically stops moving. This position is pretty stable and actually not particularly uncomfortable while I'm doing it.
But a couple of hours of that will leave me feeling like I've done some heavy lifting.

If I reduce the extremes of that position so I don't get achey, I'm nowhere near as stable.

I'm not trying to get to any competitive level, just want to get to a level I'm personally happy with.
Not sure what they level is yet, but I'll know when I think I'm shooting as well as I can.

To Get back to your point, I may well be forcing a more extreme stance to overcome my bad balance (my balance is bad in general!).
My spine is probably more flexible than most people's my age (44), but I suspect I may be able to bend more than is safe in the long term.

I'll try working on my balance rather than pushing stance.

I think your right, even one session with a coach to learn more about stance would be good. Then back to working on balance.

Medically, I spent so long with back issues I'm very aware of what I can, and can't do and am very aware of what unknown will cause me issues later on, which is why I brought this up. How I'm feeling right now most people would probably completely ignore, but I known it means I might be pushing what's sensible for me.

Thanks.

Edit...
For the record, despite my back issues and operation, I fit multi fuel stoves for a living. I use heavy breakers, carry sacks of rubble, carry cast iron woodburners (not on my own, there 90kg!), 25kg bags of materials etc. So my back isn't weak, I just know I need to be aware of certain things.

[PhatMan]

Graemevw,

I use these rear-extension tubes on all my diopter sights :

https://www.intershoot.co.uk/product...extender-9773/

Have fun

Best regards

Russ

[Graemevw]

Graemevw,

I use these rear-extension tubes on all my diopter sights :

https://www.intershoot.co.uk/product...extender-9773/

Have fun

Best regards

Russ

Thanks, that will work just fine.

[RobF]

Thanks. Your points about position and backs is interesting.
I spent 20nyears using the wrong muscles as half my back muscles locked up to protect my spinal cord! Took years after my operation to get to anything normal.

I suspect the position I'm in now is my spine will do things I probably shouldn't do with it.
Also, as I'm not that steady yet I find I can improve that by pushing my back into what may be a bad position.

I tend to have my right hip slightly behind me so I rotate a tiny bit anti-clockwise, and lean back, and lean over my right hip a little. So I'm twisting in 3 directions. I also seem to be letting my lower spine dip in to a point where is basically stops moving. This position is pretty stable and actually not particularly uncomfortable while I'm doing it.
But a couple of hours of that will leave me feeling like I've done some heavy lifting.

If I reduce the extremes of that position so I don't get achey, I'm nowhere near as stable.

I'm not trying to get to any competitive level, just want to get to a level I'm personally happy with.
Not sure what they level is yet, but I'll know when I think I'm shooting as well as I can.

To Get back to your point, I may well be forcing a more extreme stance to overcome my bad balance (my balance is bad in general!).
My spine is probably more flexible than most people's my age (44), but I suspect I may be able to bend more than is safe in the long term.

I'll try working on my balance rather than pushing stance.

I think your right, even one session with a coach to learn more about stance would be good. Then back to working on balance.

Medically, I spent so long with back issues I'm very aware of what I can, and can't do and am very aware of what unknown will cause me issues later on, which is why I brought this up. How I'm feeling right now most people would probably completely ignore, but I known it means I might be pushing what's sensible for me.

Thanks.

Edit...
For the record, despite my back issues and operation, I fit multi fuel stoves for a living. I use heavy breakers, carry sacks of rubble, carry cast iron woodburners (not on my own, there 90kg!), 25kg bags of materials etc. So my back isn't weak, I just know I need to be aware of certain things.

Good you're aware.

If you have your right hip behind you are you left handed if it's anti clockwise?

Ideally there should be a straight line through ankles to target, knees to target, hip sockets to target... but if you can't then the weakest move comes when you 'open' the hips to the target... ie for a right handed shooter, whose right leg is at the back, this moves anti clockwise and you present more of your front to the target. This can weaken your supporting arm by throwing the rifle out from being over the top of your elbow which should be sitting on your hip.

It might not be your balance. It maybe. But sometimes it can just be your flex. Or your position (don't forget your head weighs 8lb). But often the flex isn't there to start with to allow the body to connect ideally. And the other thing is people fit their position to the gun. You want to adjust the rifle to fit your position. Which is why all the 10m guns can adjust in a myriad of ways.

To be honest positional work is pretty much impossible to fix over the net. The best way is to get an instructor or coach to look at you for a short session. It won't cost much, some clubs have them for free. And it will pay dividends.

Refinement of the standing position is an ongoing process. You change even if you don't change any kit. It's like spinning plates, you work on one aspect then something else starts to become apparent, so you work on that whilst trying to keep an eye on the other. The whole shooting process can be incredibly deep in detail because you're not trying to pull of a few good shots, you're trying to replicate a good shot again and again and again.

Have fun with it

[Graemevw]

Good you're aware.

If you have your right hip behind you are you left handed if it's anti clockwise?

Ideally there should be a straight line through ankles to target, knees to target, hip sockets to target... but if you can't then the weakest move comes when you 'open' the hips to the target... ie for a right handed shooter, whose right leg is at the back, this moves anti clockwise and you present more of your front to the target. This can weaken your supporting arm by throwing the rifle out from being over the top of your elbow which should be sitting on your hip.

It might not be your balance. It maybe. But sometimes it can just be your flex. Or your position (don't forget your head weighs 8lb). But often the flex isn't there to start with to allow the body to connect ideally. And the other thing is people fit their position to the gun. You want to adjust the rifle to fit your position. Which is why all the 10m guns can adjust in a myriad of ways.

To be honest positional work is pretty much impossible to fix over the net. The best way is to get an instructor or coach to look at you for a short session. It won't cost much, some clubs have them for free. And it will pay dividends.

Refinement of the standing position is an ongoing process. You change even if you don't change any kit. It's like spinning plates, you work on one aspect then something else starts to become apparent, so you work on that whilst trying to keep an eye on the other. The whole shooting process can be incredibly deep in detail because you're not trying to pull of a few good shots, you're trying to replicate a good shot again and again and again.

Have fun with it

I've been standing the other way. I'm right handed. I stand at 90 degree to the center line, then move my right foot back so I'm starting to face away from the target clockwise. Not alot though. Then I rotate my back anti-clockwise so I end up at 90 degrees again. Make sense? I'm sort of coiling my back to take up and free play.
I can feel that it's a bad thing to do when combined with a backwards lean and a left hip forward! Improves my stability though.
I also struggle alot with left arm position. To get the rifle high enough I have to hunch my shoulders up a bit too.
I'm mikes away from being able to hold and sight the gun without having to contort and use muscles.

I have been looking for clubs when I think the nearest is rugeley. I might pop down and visit them.

The reason I think balance might be an issue is because in life in general, I never feel balanced! I always feel slightly giddy.
I've also noticed my wrists are starting to hurt (trigger hand mainly wierdly)

To be honest, this probably isn't the best sport for me! I've had spinal surgery, I've previously broken both wrists, I suffer with migraines with blind spots, I always feel dizzy and I've previously completely destroyed one of my ear drums.

Rifle fit is an issue. Not that much I can do with my old rifles though. I am tall and thin. I think I need to lower the butt plate alot more than I can. I also think ineed to raise the cheek alot. Then maybe cant the rifle in and use sight risers. I have considered making a new stock for my lgr. Maybe one day.
I'll hold off, if I get more hooked on this I'll invest in a more suitable gun.

Having said all that, I'm in no way planning to compete. I like these old target rifles and am just trying to shoot them as well as I can. It's just a bit of fun for me and a learning curve.
End goal is to consistently shoot 9s on a 6 yard target.
If I can get to that I'll be happy.

Thanks for all the advice, appreciated.

[RobF]

I've been standing the other way. I'm right handed. I stand at 90 degree to the center line, then move my right foot back so I'm starting to face away from the target clockwise. Not alot though. Then I rotate my back anti-clockwise so I end up at 90 degrees again. Make sense? I'm sort of coiling my back to take up and free play.
I can feel that it's a bad thing to do when combined with a backwards lean and a left hip forward! Improves my stability though.
I also struggle alot with left arm position. To get the rifle high enough I have to hunch my shoulders up a bit too.
I'm mikes away from being able to hold and sight the gun without having to contort and use muscles.

I have been looking for clubs when I think the nearest is rugeley. I might pop down and visit them.

The reason I think balance might be an issue is because in life in general, I never feel balanced! I always feel slightly giddy.
I've also noticed my wrists are starting to hurt (trigger hand mainly wierdly)

To be honest, this probably isn't the best sport for me! I've had spinal surgery, I've previously broken both wrists, I suffer with migraines with blind spots, I always feel dizzy and I've previously completely destroyed one of my ear drums.

Rifle fit is an issue. Not that much I can do with my old rifles though. I am tall and thin. I think I need to lower the butt plate alot more than I can. I also think ineed to raise the cheek alot. Then maybe cant the rifle in and use sight risers. I have considered making a new stock for my lgr. Maybe one day.
I'll hold off, if I get more hooked on this I'll invest in a more suitable gun.

Having said all that, I'm in no way planning to compete. I like these old target rifles and am just trying to shoot them as well as I can. It's just a bit of fun for me and a learning curve.
End goal is to consistently shoot 9s on a 6 yard target.
If I can get to that I'll be happy.

Thanks for all the advice, appreciated.

I'd suggest going to a club and going from there. I think that should yield the most improvement vs trying to work it out yourself.

Your foot position doesn't sound that odd now you've explained it. If you are tall and long limbed then you can have issues with gun fit as they are made for an average of shooter sizes. Short people have issues as well.

Dropping the butt lowers your natural point of aim, will raise the sights up to you. But you can use risers which can be a cheap fix, and getting the cheekpiece to fit so you can align your eye to sights consistently blind will help and pay dividends.

It's all a case of refinement and how much you put into it vs balancing your enjoyment.

What I would say though is that you'll gain scores with flat pellets because 6yd and 10m is inward scoring and flats will cut a wider hole than a dome.

[Graemevw]

I'd suggest going to a club and going from there. I think that should yield the most improvement vs trying to work it out yourself.

Your foot position doesn't sound that odd now you've explained it. If you are tall and long limbed then you can have issues with gun fit as they are made for an average of shooter sizes. Short people have issues as well.

Dropping the butt lowers your natural point of aim, will raise the sights up to you. But you can use risers which can be a cheap fix, and getting the cheekpiece to fit so you can align your eye to sights consistently blind will help and pay dividends.

It's all a case of refinement and how much you put into it vs balancing your enjoyment.

What I would say though is that you'll gain scores with flat pellets because 6yd and 10m is inward scoring and flats will cut a wider hole than a dome.

When I said lower the butt, I ment the butt plate, to raise the cheek.
If I stand comfortably and hold the rifle without hunching etc the sights are at my chin!!

I will look for local clubs. Not that many around though are there!

Thanks for all the advice.

[RobF]

When I said lower the butt, I ment the butt plate, to raise the cheek.
If I stand comfortably and hold the rifle without hunching etc the sights are at my chin!!

I will look for local clubs. Not that many around though are there!

Thanks for all the advice.

Yes, lowering the butt plate lowers the natural POI. Sounds counter intuitive but it does follow logic.

Yes, if you lower the butt it will raise the cheek.

Comfort is a good goal for a position.