Could this be a prototype for the T.J.Harrington Gat?

[harvey_s]

Are these points enough to raise its status as a Gat prototype from a slight possibility to a reasonable probability? Or am I reading too much into this?

Your comments would be very welcome!

With the greatest respect there is no provenance to suggest it's status is anything more than a homemade project apart from a few similarities that may or may not have been copied from an original.

It could equally even be a competitor's prototype...?

Without any provenance, I don't see its status being anything other than an interesting curiosity.

[Powderfinger]

James Harrington lived a long life and died relatively recently. I have read a press interview with him. He was a colourful and creative character to say the least. Did he leave any written account of his work?

[ccdjg]

With the greatest respect there is no provenance to suggest it's status is anything more than a homemade project apart from a few similarities that may or may not have been copied from an original.

It could equally even be a competitor's prototype...?

Without any provenance, I don't see its status being anything other than an interesting curiosity.

I agree perfectly with your last point.

However, I am always surprised by the general feeling among collectors that there was a plethora of amateurs out there making their own prototypes, and creating confusion. I have been collecting and researching air pistols now for 45 years, and I can count on one hand the number of unidentifiable British-made pistols that have come to light in all those years. So on the very rare occasions that they turn up I don't think we can just shrug them off as 'just another cobbled together project'. We need to seriously ask the question, what motivated the creation of the gun?

[micky2]

When l owned this pistol. l bought it as a home made one. l just thought it seemed a lot of work to be a protype of any kind. but l liked the construction of it and the thought that had gone into making it. l also have a few other what l class as home made guns, which l admire the skill and the thought of coming up with ldears of making an airgun. just my take on it, we will never for sure.

[ggggr]

I think as Ed has pointed out, it is possible for someone to make one of these. With some of these things you have found John, it is/was quite possible for a skilled engineer to make them. You have made guns from scratch! from patents you have found and have made a much neater job than most of them. If the guns you had made, were "prototypes", they would probably be lot rougher than they are. Look at that Slant gripped Webley modification you have.

A skilled worker could turn out most of the rough "prototypes" you have found.
People will tinker. You make guns. That bloke Grant Stace? in New Zealand makes guns. There is the bloke who has made tiny springers. I know someone who has made tiny pre charged rifles. In the 100years + of airpistols, dont you think some other skilled people will have made or improved things? AND dont you think some will have survived?

Being honest, pop outs are totally crap, with the firing cycle and the barrel and sleeve being able to move means they are not accurate at all. Plus the screw in probe gets on your nerves after a few shots. Im saying this from the point of view that why would anyone with the skills even bother to try to improve one? As Ed has said, some people are just like that (Loved the roof rack thing Ed ) . Maybe someone wanted to make the gun for his son or grandson. Those grips are pretty snazzy------but surely if you were doing a prototype, you would just put a plain wooden set on?

A few things make me think it is a home made job. Like Ed, that probe does look like it is off something else---------like a jet holder or jet off a carburettor.
Also, I believe BA thread is common in model building? I tend to tap things to 2 or 4ba if Im messing with something with dodgy threads. Also Bsf is common I think in model building and would have been in engineering years ago. I think the trigger is an attempt to improve a standard trigger to get a shorter pull, but I cannot see someone intending to put an adjustable trigger on a cheap budget gun like a GAT.

Sometimes we cannot find out about even more recent things, whether something was a prototype, whether a part was actually fitted to a gun or an after market or home made modification, so in over 100 years, what chance do we really have?

I like seeing some of these things no matter what they are.

Did Milbro ever make a .22 Calibre G4 pistol? A mate has one. His metalwork teacher did the barrel for him---back in the days when things like that happened.

You look at some other things like the Voere? And just wonder what was going on in someones mind.

Keep turning them up John.

[edbear2]

I agree perfectly with your last point.

However, I am always surprised by the general feeling among collectors that there was a plethora of amateurs out there making their own prototypes, and creating confusion. I have been collecting and researching air pistols now for 45 years, and I can count on one hand the number of unidentifiable British-made pistols that have come to light in all those years. So on the very rare occasions that they turn up I don't think we can just shrug them off as 'just another cobbled together project'. We need to seriously ask the question, what motivated the creation of the gun?

Even Dennis Hillier had one in his green book I recall, and commented on how "home made airguns" often turn up , and fetch either good or poor prices depending on the skill /quality of execution, I recall it was a rifle based on a MK3 that was featured , but I don't have a copy to hand, maybe someone could put up the text.

"Seriously ask the question" and "motivation" are as I explained earlier, I have made a couple myself from scratch, starting at school with cannons of course, then a airline fed bb SMG based on an Owen gun with a Stirling mag hiding a feed hopper and feed system a bit like a spray gun pick up.

Don't even know where that is now, made it in circa 1985 at work for breaktime plinking with workmates.

Just idling away time usually surrounded by the facilities that make such projects easy to do in my case. It's what folk do I would say for various reasons, mine being just because I could and had the time and equipment to do it quite quickly as worked in engineering.

As Guy righty says loads of folk have made all sorts, like the metalwork teacher who did the Lee Enfield / BSA "Milpats", or someone who put a brass .25 rifled barrel into a BSA standard owned (a while ago) by a guy near Stroud I bought a Airsporter MK1 off.

What on earth was the point of the latter?....It could not be confused for a real .25 as the wrong period, and the work was noticable at the crown, That was a serious bit of time and lining up etc. to get that done, and someone did it just because they could, or fancied a .25, a pointless exercise to 90% of shooters or collectors I would venture, but someone made the effort.

I knew a guy where I worked in the 1980's who was very skilled (he did action filing for Accuracy International) who made a perfect replica of a Gibson Mastertone Banjo, all sorts of other stuff but was a keen shooter, one one occasion I saw him patiently at the bandsaw sawing slowly through a lump of alloy steel.

This took a few tea breaks, he had bought an Urberti SAA and decided he liked the look of the Colt Bisley, so then spent weeks and weeks making a new drop style hammer, new grip frame, new grips, you name it, until it was 100% correct.

All colour cased or whatever, new front blade, whole gun to white and re-done......He could have bought a real one with the weeks and weeks of faffing about

That's out there probably causing confusion too! as maybe in 100 years a couple of my BSA efforts might be, although all the numbers of mine are out there online, in previous these little projects history normally died with the creator.

So if anyone has seen a air fed SMG with Premier grips and triggerguard, a sten MK1 like tubular stock, and a curved Stirling mag topped with a brass plate and BB feed, then it's not a prototype, It's just something knocked up to shoot the piles of tin cans discarded by the soft drinks transport hub once located in the Brooklands industrial park after they had a forlift mishap



ATB, Ed

[evert]

The use of 2BA and 4BA screws can be explained by looking at your average Mk3/4 Meteor.

[Jerry Cornelius]

I think we’re all missing the most important part of this thread:

with my book re-write at the printers

Exciting.

[ccdjg]

OK, now for some facts.

(Remember we are talking spring air pistols here, I don’t pretend to know a great deal about air rifles or PCP pistols). Our current state of knowledge of unmarked, fully functional British-made springer pistols made over the last 150 years boils down to just 11 examples. These are summarized in the following collage. This has been put together using information culled from years of research, involving access to numerous collections, magazine articles, books, auction catalogues, patent data bases etc. If anyone knows of a documented example not on this list I would be over the moon to hear about it, as they turn up so rarely (about one every 15 years on average, it seems).



Of these 10 pistols, three are definitely crude home-made jobs, two are almost certainly assignable to a maker (Bussey and Greener), and the rest are interesting subjects for discussion.

What is noteworthy is that of all these pistols that enthusiasts have chosen to make, only one is a pop-out pistol. Presumably all the time and effort needed to produce a working pistol is not something that the average amateur machinist would want to waste on what is little more than a toy. However, things would be different if there was a strong financial motivation in making such a pop-out prototype. Given the obvious age of the pistol, T.J. Harrington then comes to mind. Then when one takes into account the similarities between his first commercial Gat and the mystery pistol, I think one must admit that there is a at least a grain of possibility that he made it.

[Jerry Cornelius]

Good god what was the creator of middle row far right thinking?

[ccdjg]

Good god what was the creator of middle row far right thinking?

Sorry Jerry. You will have to wait for the book (not for very long though!)

Cheers,
John

[micky2]

I think that the thing here is, that most of these pistols will have some sort of resemblance to production pistols. so it is easy to jump to the conclusion that they could be some sort of prototypes, as with the case of my Britannia l bought of a dealer who had put it up as a prototype?. l bought it as what l thought was someone who just wanted to make a similar rifle just because he could. a case which we will probably never be able to prove. but it does make for a good discussion. l just love them and admire the thought and skill that as gone into making them by whoever.

[silva]

OK, now for some facts.

(Remember we are talking spring air pistols here, I don’t pretend to know a great deal about air rifles or PCP pistols). Our current state of knowledge of unmarked, fully functional British-made springer pistols made over the last 150 years boils down to just 11 examples. These are summarized in the following collage. This has been put together using information culled from years of research, involving access to numerous collections, magazine articles, books, auction catalogues, patent data bases etc. If anyone knows of a documented example not on this list I would be over the moon to hear about it, as they turn up so rarely (about one every 15 years on average, it seems).



Of these 10 pistols, three are definitely crude home-made jobs, two are almost certainly assignable to a maker (Bussey and Greener), and the rest are interesting subjects for discussion.

What is noteworthy is that of all these pistols that enthusiasts have chosen to make, only one is a pop-out pistol. Presumably all the time and effort needed to produce a working pistol is not something that the average amateur machinist would want to waste on what is little more than a toy. However, things would be different if there was a strong financial motivation in making such a pop-out prototype. Given the obvious age of the pistol, T.J. Harrington then comes to mind. Then when one takes into account the similarities between his first commercial Gat and the mystery pistol, I think one must admit that there is a at least a grain of possibility that he made it.

Was Harrington already an established light engineering works or manufacturer in the timeframe you think the pistol was maufacturered. It says auto specialists on the old adverts. Its a long shot, but maybe if any original catalogues or patents survive, there will be parts from other products in the range, that have been repurposed into the pistol. The chequered grips possibly, or the barrel end plug. Was it purchased from the region of the Harrington works. Is there any possibilty of establishing where the pistol came from prior to your ownership. Did it come on the market after the death of the inventor, who apparently only passed away in relatively recent times.

[ccdjg]

Was Harrington already an established light engineering works or manufacturer in the timeframe you think the pistol was maufacturered. It says auto specialists on the old adverts. Its a long shot, but maybe if any original catalogues or patents survive, there will be parts from other products in the range, that have been repurposed into the pistol. The chequered grips possibly, or the barrel end plug. Was it purchased from the region of the Harrington works. Is there any possibilty of establishing where the pistol came from prior to your ownership. Did it come on the market after the death of the inventor, who apparently only passed away in relatively recent times.

Some interesting thoughts there.

There is not a lot known about the manufacturing range of T.J.Harrington & Son in the 1930's, and it has been described as a 'blacksmith' or 'light engineering' business. It was set up by T.J.Harrington, the father of James Harrington, in about 1920, and James (the inventor of the Gat) joined the business in 1935 at the age of 23. After he eventually took over the business from his father, it continued to be called 'T.J.Harrington & Son Ltd.' until it was taken over by the American company S/R Industries in 2020. James Harrington died in 1996.The only adverts for the company, including early ones mentioning automotive parts, all date from the post-war period. None are known for the pre-war period, when the first Gat was produced.


Unfortunately I can only trace the history of the pistol back to the dealer I bought it off about 4 years ago. He was of the opinion that it was a 'student-made' item. I have no idea when it first appeared in collecting circles or if it only appeared after J.H's death in 1996.

[evert]

..... Given the obvious age of the pistol, T.J. Harrington then comes to mind. Then when one takes into account the similarities between his first commercial Gat and the mystery pistol, I think one must admit that there is a at least a grain of possibility that he made it.

How can you be that sure about the age? A damp cellar or shed combined with an unfinished steel surface will rust quite fast.
With all respect, without knowing the real history of the pistol, the most likely explanation is usually not the most exiting one.