Repro pellets box's revisited

[ptdunk]

I know this has been discussed before (eg: https://www.airgunbbs.com/showthread...boxes-and-tins)
But since doing the vid on Dario's pellet box & tin collection I've got a new appreciation of the issue and it seems there are more examples of convincing repro box's (fakes) available then ever, some purposefully pre aged:

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I don't see the point....What pleasure do people get from owning these? The mountain of fake Bulldog pellet box's fills me with dread.

I appreciate some people have made reproduction pistol and pellet box's that have a mark or something to distinguish them from originals which is great, but the wholesale mass production of ones that are trying to look as genuine as possible leaves a bad taste.
To me the whole point in acquiring a rare pellet box is the pleasure you get from knowing how rare it is and enjoying how nice some of them look. I really don't see the point in a fake Bulldog pellet box. If you can't find a real one then don't have one! (just my opinion, I'm sure others will disagree)

There was a great thread on how to ID repro pistol box's: https://www.airgunbbs.com/showthread...oxes&p=8164379

But what are things to look out for when looking at repro (is fake too strong a word?) pellet box's? Dario says a lot of repro's have rounded edges to the folds....Should we be walking round arms fairs with little UV torches? Unfortunately they aren't all made from old cornflakes box's

On a well know coastal shops website (no offence intended, I do like that shop) there were 27 different types of repro pellet box's and 7 originals. Many of the repros had blurb saying they were great because you couldn't tell they were reproductions...once these are in circulation it can only muddy the waters.

I know this has been discussed before but for the record knowing what to look out for may help future or new collectors.

Cheers,
Matt

[Evostu]

Ah protek lol
If you need a box to complete a boxed pistol set then that's the only reason I'd buy a fake box,although I'd much rather have the original
The same mor their range of fake webley pistol boxes they do,again I'd much rather have the original but sometimes it's impossible to get,especially for something like a mk2 target
My biggest concern is seeing several pistols for sale I a repo box but the advert stating its in an original box

Same as my cased webley senior,it was missing an oil can and the chances of getting an original are virtually 0,if one could be found it would be £600+ so I settled for a decent fake to fill the hole in the case

[isobar]

i share your concern and sentiments regarding repro/fake because as times pass who will what is original and what is repro.even a seller won't know.

[BadPigeon]

Its heart breaking to see these reproduced as aged boxes and looking rather well made as we all know these will be soon up for sale as originals all over the place. In fact they already are for sale on a popular online market place.

Unless we can examine any newish looking cardboard vintage pellet box in person i would be inclined to think they are fake. This sort of kills the original improved bulldogs online sales along with all the others in light of these many reproductions. The prices of some of the pellet boxes sold recently i suppose proved just too much to resist for the fakes industry. However i am very surprised that a well respected shop is the source of these fakes.

I would much rather live in hope of finding an original box then buy a repro but then again thats me, also encouraging the fakes makes finding an original box hard due to the loss of trust in this niche market. I for one wont sell any more of mine duplicate vintage cardboard pellet boxes purchased as part of collections as the prices are rapidly hitting the rock bottom for the cardboard the tins are fine.

[Josie & John]

I agree Matt.

I just don't see the point of a repro box and after a few years of wear, it will make identification difficult. Some repro boxes I was given are marked as such on the inside flaps but I don't know if all are and I don't think the Webley pistol boxes are.

John

[ggggr]

I agree Matt.

I just don't see the point of a repro box and after a few years of wear, it will make identification difficult. Some repro boxes I was given are marked as such on the inside flaps but I don't know if all are and I don't think the Webley pistol boxes are.

John

As you probably know, Chris Hough had some repro pellet boxes done. As these started to appear on the bay as "Genuine", he stamps them inside with "Reproduction" (I think).

[ccdjg]

As you probably know, Chris Hough had some repro pellet boxes done. As these started to appear on the bay as "Genuine", he stamps them inside with "Reproduction" (I think).

Yes, Chris does clearly mark his repro' boxes, inside the lid flap with the words 'This is a facsimile. A modern copy. For display only'. These then serve a useful function for collectors, such as shelf wallpaper for a gun room, to temporarily fill a space in a cased pistol etc.. It would be impossible to remove the lettering from these without it being obvious.

[slug-gun]

I am on the same page as Matt, reproduction of period commodities is an unfortunate and unwelcome trend, that probably helps few in the long run. Air gun artefacts are far from alone in being copied however.
I have noticed an ever growing tendency for attractive enamel signs to be reproduced. An example is the black on white Purdey trade sign, of which there were three examples on the last time I looked, all at different prices, all with the 'rust' and 'corrosion' reproduced as well!
All very clever until you find out you have paid ten times the going rate, and find out eventually you will!

Perhaps one saving grace with pellet card boxes is that a pre war box, even if kept untouched in a drawer, will still exhibit signs of aging inevitably after all those years. There will be discolouration of the paper; the corners of the end flap for example will have started to curl, and the box itself will probably be slightly misshapen, with evidence of scuffing at the edges?
You would have to be clever to fake all that, and given the relatively modest value, the work involved wouldn't be worth the time and effort?

Another obvious area to examine, but less easy to do at an arms fair or in someone's front room of course, is to analyse the nature of the ink. Modern inks use different chemicals to those of yesteryear, so with the relevant analysis, immediate confirmation of age, or not, could be realised.

Also of course there is the issue of the pellets inside. They would in all likelihood have started to oxidise, and will have stained the inside of the card packaging accordingly. And if the box is 'mint' but empty, you have to ask the question where did all the pellets go?
In a fake box they either won't be there, or there'll be replaced with newer looking and probably non original slugs. And the inside of the box will therefore be as clean as a whistle.

So whilst I generally deplore the reproduction of anything - I mean people who wear fake Rolex watches to impress, what's that all about - I think if you look hard and ask the right questions you should escape being 'taken in'?

[Dornfelderliebe]

I would like a couple of the Bulldog boxes for the bottom shelves on my racks. They have a certain charm and I would not have to worry about daylight fading them. I have a couple of boxes of genuine pellets from the 70s which are kept out of daylight.

[ptdunk]

Some good replies, thanks.

I suppose there are different types of collector, I'm not a 'completist' but I understand why some collectors wish to put together sets of guns, box's pellets and accessories, and these can be hard to find. I still don't see the attraction of a pistol in a repro box, with repro accessories, but I suppose it gives the desired effect.
I always try to buy boxed examples of any air pistols and to be honest early in my collecting I got a straight gripped mk1 without a box and I bought one of Protek's very nicely made repro box's, for storage as much as anything.
I still try to get boxed examples of any air pistols but now I store all my pistols in gun socks in drawers and store the box's separately. Although it's beautifully made the repro box always makes me feel a bit disappointed in myself.

To mark a repro pellet box 'This is a facsimile. A modern copy. For display only'. is very conscientious, and there's nothing wrong with that. I don't think the ones pictured above are marked as such.

Interesting to hear the realised prices of pellet box's has hit rock bottom recently, as it was very healthy a year ago. I've only just checked in to see what repros are available and was surprised to see how many there are now.

I'm guessing Ink testing is tricky on a little pellet box, can someone remind me of how the U.V paper test works again please? what are the dates affected and will any U.V torch do?

re. reproduction Webley pistol box's I've seen online sellers of vintage airguns selling 50-90 year old Webley pistols with absolutely mint box's that must be reproductions but no mention is made of it.
At least when Protek sell pistols they mention 'we've put it in one of our reproduction box's' which is fair enough.

Cheers,
Matt

[Garvin]

I re-read the other thread and can see I'm all over the place on the question of facsimiles.

Not only have I spent wads of cash on a genuine Webley oil can when I swore I wouldn't, I've put a couple of loose Webley pistols in those lovely repro boxes.

[ccdjg]

I'm guessing Ink testing is tricky on a little pellet box, can someone remind me of how the U.V paper test works again please? what are the dates affected and will any U.V torch do?

Cheers,
Matt

Matt,

The UV test is based on the fact that UV brighteners were first introduced onto the paper and card making industries in 1950. These invisible dyes convert the invisible UV light in daylight into bright blue/white light and so make white card and paper look even whiter and brighter. They were so popular and cheap that by about 1965 virtually all commercial white card and paper had these in. In fact it is now extremely difficult to find any without them in, so much so that paper with no UV brighteners is used for banknotes, knowing that forgers have a very hard time getting such paper.

So if anything with white paper labels or made of white card glows blue-white under UV light, you can be 100% certain that it was not made before 1950.

On the other hand, if it does not glow under UV you cannot be 100% certain it is a genuine pre-1950 product, because the use of UV brighteners was phased in, but you can be very near certain that it is pre-1965.

You can use any sort of UV pen, but some are better than others. The less visible light and more dark (UV) light it produces, the better it is.
The problem is that it works best in a dark room, so in a brightly lit hall it will difficult to see the glow. You need to do the test in the shadiest area you can find, or put your hand over the object to shade it as much as you can. Here are some examples, photographed in a dark room to enhance the effect.

The first shows a pre-1950 Lanes Cat Slug box, which came with a pre-war boxed Gat pistol, alongside a box of Cat Slugs I bought about 15 years ago. You can see that in the dark under UV light the older box is almost invisible, whereas the newer box glows brightly and so cannot be pre-1950. This does not mean it is a fake though, as Lanes were marketing these slugs into the 1960’s when UV brightened cardboard was the norm.





The next picture shows a selection of pellet boxes of varying ages.





The brightly glowing John Bull box is a definite fake(it is marked as reproduction), whereas the dark box is genuinely old. The same goes for the Beatall pellets, the glowing box is a deliberate fake. In the case of the Marksman pellets, the dark box is pre-1950 and the glowing box post 1950. However the glowing box is not a fake as the pellets are still being made and I bought this box as new a few months ago from a sports shop.


Here are some more examples. The pre-1950 boxes can be easily distinguished from the post-1950 boxes:





Here are a couple of pistol boxes from the same manufacturer- one pre-war the other post 1983. The differences can easily be seen.






So the UV test is by no means the perfect dating tool, but it certainly can be a big help, and for the cost of a few pounds off Fleabay it is a no-brainer.

[Troubledshooter]

I still have a UV tube from my Philatelic days, so presumably that would do the job as well.
The only pellet box I have reproduced in any quantity, 20 I think, was the Webley .25 pellet box, with the main giveaway, apart from some having Kellogs writing internally, being the '99 - 66' apostrophes each side of 'Webley'.
The labels on those and my pistol boxes were all laser printed, with no attempt made at ageing.

[pjbingham]

The more I think about replicas of anything the most I end up in a conflicting hypocritical mess. I cast replica resin pistol grips and from the rear they are clearly a modern resin however I try to make them as authentic to the front as possible. I want to see these old pistols live again but I’m mindful that future custodians my be caught out by them and I have no wish to deceive. As a rule I do not agree though with replica pellet boxes unless so clearly marked so as to never cause confusion as to their origins. As mentioned earlier Chris Hough when he made some really did go the extra mile to make sure his could never be mistaken so I see that level of replica as ok. I’m not going to knock Protek as they are good guys but generally speaking replica boxes of the level they sell are way way to good or bad depending on your outlook and I can see future purchasers getting caught out. Then you get some of the Fleabay numpties with their dodgy looking boxes, I reported some not so long ago as being fake, they were being sold as “vintage and original” and in one set of photos you could clearly see the lid had never been folded it had no creases it was still a flat section of card and then in s following photo that same lid had been crudely folded over and stuffed inside the box. Fleabays highly trained team of pellet box experts deemed it pukka though so it remained listed ready to dupe the unwary.

[ptdunk]

Matt,

The UV test is based on the fact that UV brighteners were first introduced onto the paper and card making industries in 1950. These invisible dyes convert the invisible UV light in daylight into bright blue/white light and so make white card and paper look even whiter and brighter. They were so popular and cheap that by about 1965 virtually all commercial white card and paper had these in. In fact it is now extremely difficult to find any without them in, so much so that paper with no UV brighteners is used for banknotes, knowing that forgers have a very hard time getting such paper.

So if anything with white paper labels or made of white card glows blue-white under UV light, you can be 100% certain that it was not made before 1950.

On the other hand, if it does not glow under UV you cannot be 100% certain it is a genuine pre-1950 product, because the use of UV brighteners was phased in, but you can be very near certain that it is pre-1965.



So the UV test is by no means the perfect dating tool, but it certainly can be a big help, and for the cost of a few pounds off Fleabay it is a no-brainer.

Fantastic stuff, thanks John.
I’ve ordered my UV torch and Dario tells me that thanks to this info he was able to check his pellet box collection and is much reassured.

Got to be worthy of a short public service video.

Cheers,
Matt