Shooting Jacket Sizes.

[zooma]

When I bought my first Gehmann shooting jacket some years ago I was able to try a few sizes (thanks to Ryan at Intershoot) and found them all to be a bit claustrophobic, but I eventually chose a size 54 which seemed plenty tight enough.

After wearing it for around 3 years or so I had worn through the rifle pad on the right hand shoulder, and as I got more used to the feeling of being in a straight jacket I actually started to move the buttons inwards to make it fit tighter!

About then I was told about an advert (on the bay) for an "as new" all leather Gehmann shooting jacket - but it was a size 52. The price was good so I bought it and took a chance on the size and fortunately it fitted me like the preverbal glove. I am really pleased with this jacket and still wear it every week and keep it in the club, but a spare jacket at the right price would be handy for home shooting and as a reserve when I wanted to either get this one cleaned or repaired.

Recently (about 2 years on again), I saw another advert (same source) for a "once worn" size 52 shooting jacket and made an offer for it that was accepted. When the HTX jacket arrived I was surprised that I struggled to get it on - even the sleeves were tight (really tight!).

I am in the process of moving the buttons to get it to fit (just to be able to get into it) - but the tightness of the sleeves mean that I cannot wear my usual sweatshirt underneath (we shoot in a cellar - and it is never hot!) so it looks like this superb quality leather jacket will be relegated to summer use only when I can use it in the club without a sweatshirt or fear of freezing to death!

My home garage range is certainly no warmer in the winter so it is only going to work for me when it is warm - and I would prefer to always wear the same under garment (in my case a sweatshirt) but due to the very tight sleeves this will not be possible.

Anyway, the point about all of this is that the sizes of shooting jackets seems to vary considerably between manufacturers so I have learnt something - but why do HTX make the sleeves so tight? This is not an area that needs to be so tight surely?

[tim s]

In my experience, standard size jackets tend to have very roomy sleeves as a necessity, to accomodate burly arms. If the Hitex was originally made to measure, the sleeves will have been tailored as well as the body. You may have the same chest size as the chap who ordered it, but not the arms. For the sling positions, your elbows can slip around in baggy sleeves.

Also remember that ISSF rules severely restrict the thickness of clothing under jackets. So expensive jackets tend to be tailored to fit over fairly thin layers.

[zooma]

Since first starting this thread I have moved all of the buttons out by one inch and it is now possible to get the jacket to fasten around my chest - when wearing my regular sweatshirt (!), but it was hard to get my arms into the sleeves and it remains very tight across the shoulders.

This would appear to be a standard "off the peg" jacket with the manufacturers size 52 label sewn into it.

The close grip on the arms is not helped by the elasticated bellows around the elbow and shoulders as they grip fairly tightly and have no slide at all on the undergarment (sweatshirt).

Getting the jacket off is very difficult and needs the help of a second person to pull it off of my shoulders and then to help drag it down and off of my arms - definitely not good if you are in a hurry!

The difference between the fit of this size 52 HTX jacket and my size 52 Gehmann jacket is significantly different - it is smaller and fits much tighter (especially around the arms and across the shoulders) and I fail to see the advantage of having elasticated tight fitting bellows around the arms - or having the sleeves made so narrow that it needs bellows to allow some arm movement!

Wider fitting sleeves (like my Gehmann jacket) would be much better for me and a lot easier to get the jacket on and off. Sadly I do not have large arm muscles, but if I did, I doubt that this jacket could be pulled on over my arms at all!

Such a variance in sizes and fittings makes it difficult to shop for a shooting jacket online with any degree of confidence that the size that arrives will actually fit - unless you are already familiar with the make and type.

Buying a secondhand shooting jacket is a risk (with such variances) as you can't exactly go back to the seller and ask to try a different size or type (!) - unlike when I bought my first jacket new from a good and helpful supplier!

I will wear this jacket as often as I can to try and "break it in" but the difference in fit has been quite a surprise and the tight fitting sleeves will take a bit of getting used to.

The HTX jacket is well made and looks smart, but my guess would be that a size larger than normally chosen for a Gehmann jacket would help, but I cant help but wonder if the sleeves would be any looser?

[tim s]

Zooma,

The lycra gussets at the elbows and armpits are there to provide flexibility. Most European branded shooting jackets are intended for 3-P shooting, and flexibility is useful, especially in Kneeling, but also in Prone. My old Anschutz Fusion has a gusset near the top of the right sleeve to prevent it riding up in prone, if the right shoulder is high. Elbow gussets also prevent the sling twisting the whole sleeve, and are just more comfortable if the sleeve is properly tailored. As I mentioned before, really baggy sleeves aren't desirable for the sling positions. A closer fit around the elbow lessens movement, both of the arm in the sleeve, and the sleeve on the floor. Some brands are cut tighter than others, but few (if any) are cut as wide as a standard size.

I've seen a few Hitex made-to-measure jackets, and the sleeves are often a close fit. It's quite possible this is a design feature of all their jackets. It's also possible the sleeves were tailored; TenPointNine Tailoring were Hitex's UK dealer for several years, and would tweak(or even rebuild) standard size jackets. Hitex are quite well regarded, probably more so than Gehmann today; the Gehmann sells because it's affordable, not because it's a brilliant design.

A sweatshirt isn't the ideal underlayer; as you have found, it rucks and folds under the jacket. This is why most shooters who buy an MTM jacket also budget for purpose made shooting underwear. A cheaper alternative would be a "technical" hiking baselayer shirt, these are a lycra mix and fit closely. Most high street sports/outdoors shops will sell one for a reasonable price.

[zooma]

Thanks for your contribution Tim - very interesting.

I have just tried to get onto the Ten Point Nine Tailoring site to take a look at the HTX range of jackets etc (only for interest sake to see if I can see what style or type of jacket mine could be) but it seems to have a fault at the moment - although I did see that they have a trading address in Guernsey - although an address in Wolverhampton is also shown and both addresses have contact numbers.

From what I can see they now produce their own range of shooting jackets, so maybe they no longer import or distribute the HTX clothing ?

I have checked the HTX site ( www.hitex.cz ) to try and identify my jacket type, but I cannot see an exact copy of it (not surprising as manufacturers do change their ranges from time to time) but it is very similar to the Cotton Star (maybe an older model) but the label inside my jacket reads 80% cotton, 20% leather.

The narrow sleeve feature with bellows on the joints does seem to be a common feature though, so maybe you are right and the sleeves are naturally made a little narrower to accommodate 3D shooting better?

[tim s]

Hi,

I don't think Pippa has moved to Guernsey! They did move into a larger workshop in the Spring, but only locally, on the edges of Wolverhampton.

They now carry Kurt Thune clothing, as well as their own. I've heard rumours of a 3-P jacket, but their own models are prone-only. They will still work on Hitex, as well as Tucker, Truttmann, Anschutz, Creedmoor etc.

[RobinC]

Bob,

Pippa (Tenpointnine) has recently moved to a new site, close by, she was Tettenhall (Wolverhampton ish), you'll still get her on the old telephone numbers.

Tim is spot on, Pippa (the best shooting kit fitter in the UK) has almost certainly adjusted the Hitex Cotton Star you bought to fit its original buyer. Pam and I get all our kit from her, she did both Pam's jackets, she will get others peoples "alleged" made to measures perfect although now she is very busy making her own designs. She still supplies Kurt Thune and Hitex, but also makes her own Jackets, initially prone only, but I believe is now doing 3p's.

We only buy our kit from her, and only recommend her, a very talented lady.

My bespoke prone jacket from her is superb, perfect fit and a piece of art, described by one of my friends as similar to the leather interior of a very expensive car!

Might you have a rifle that would justify a fitted jacket in the same colours? Perhaps dark Green, Anthracite, and Silver?

Have Fun
Robin

[zooma]

Bob,

Might you have a rifle that would justify a fitted jacket in the same colours? Perhaps dark Green, Anthracite, and Silver?

Have Fun

Robin

Hi Robin,

Yes indeed.

The new Walther LG400 Anatomic rifle that you collected from MEC for me recently does deserve to have some matching kit to go with it

The unusual "Anthracite" colour (sort of like a slate grey or RAF blue/grey depending on the light) with the silver carbon barrel and anodised silver action really does look beautiful.

As always, it would be the weakest link that spoils this super-smart image - but I did have a long overdue hair cut this week

Thanks for your on-going help, encouragement, and support!

Bob.

[zooma]

Zooma,

The lycra gussets at the elbows and armpits are there to provide flexibility. Most European branded shooting jackets are intended for 3-P shooting, and flexibility is useful, especially in Kneeling, but also in Prone. My old Anschutz Fusion has a gusset near the top of the right sleeve to prevent it riding up in prone, if the right shoulder is high. Elbow gussets also prevent the sling twisting the whole sleeve, and are just more comfortable if the sleeve is properly tailored. As I mentioned before, really baggy sleeves aren't desirable for the sling positions. A closer fit around the elbow lessens movement, both of the arm in the sleeve, and the sleeve on the floor. Some brands are cut tighter than others, but few (if any) are cut as wide as a standard size.

I've seen a few Hitex made-to-measure jackets, and the sleeves are often a close fit. It's quite possible this is a design feature of all their jackets. It's also possible the sleeves were tailored; TenPointNine Tailoring were Hitex's UK dealer for several years, and would tweak(or even rebuild) standard size jackets. Hitex are quite well regarded, probably more so than Gehmann today; the Gehmann sells because it's affordable, not because it's a brilliant design.

A sweatshirt isn't the ideal underlayer; as you have found, it rucks and folds under the jacket. This is why most shooters who buy an MTM jacket also budget for purpose made shooting underwear. A cheaper alternative would be a "technical" hiking baselayer shirt, these are a lycra mix and fit closely. Most high street sports/outdoors shops will sell one for a reasonable price.

Thanks for the info Tim,

At this moment I only shoot 10 meter rifle so the tight pattern sleeves (with gussets) of the HTX jacket are really of no benefit to me, and slightly looser sleeves like the Gehmann jackets would actually be better (more comfortable and easier to get on and off) - but I can understand the reasoning and maybe one day it may even come in handy!

If (or when) I buy a custom made jacket the size of the sleeves would depend on my current use, and if it was still 10 meter rifle shooting I would prefer a slightly looser fitting sleeve ( as per my Gehmann jackets).

The sweatshirt may not be the "ideal" underlay, but when shooting in a cellar it is good. Shooting when really cold is not great and the sweatshirts (although quite thin) make the difference between being comfortable or being cold - and I prefer to stay warm (ish). As I always wear a sweatshirt (of the same type and/or thickness) I can keep a constant weight of undergarment and I think this continuity is quite important.

I do have thinner technical under garments that I use for other sports, so it would be possible for me to easily change to them without any problems, but I would need to see how practical it would be to wear them when shooting in our cellar range. The temperature in the range stays surprisingly consistent during the year - but in the worst of winter weather it will drop a few degrees and then it may not be so comfortable as wearing the sweatshirts.

Some visitors shoot in very hot ranges in the summer (like in roofs, lofts, or huts etc) and love to come to our range as it is cooler in the summer. In the winter they can also suffer from even greater temperature variations and then find our cellar range warmer! If we had greater temperature variations (or if we shot outdoors) I may not have chosen the same undergarment, but for our circumstances it work's well all year and needs no change.

I did not know that the HTX jackets are higher quality than the Gehmann jackets, but I am pleased with the quality of my "new to me" HTX jacket (although not a fan of the tight sleeves) and now that I have adjusted the buttons to fit me a little better I will "break it in" and see how I get on with it.

My Gehmann jackets have always fitted me comfortably "off the peg", and the cut and shape fit me well enough. Moving the button positions (as I have also just done with my HTX jacket) has taken care of any adjustments I have ever wanted to make, and for 10 meter air rifle shooting I have found the sleeves on the Gehmann jackets to be a comfortable fit.

Having said that - a custom made jacket has to be the best !

[tim s]

Zooma,

I'd say you're quite right to maintain a constant thickness of underclothing. Personally I think technical fabrics are better than cotton, warmer in the winter, and cooler in the summer. Cotton tends to get damp and claggy in the heat.

I shoot on an uninsulated and unheated range; wool long johns make a big difference in the winter.

There is one advantage for tailored sleeves in 10m air, a pointier left elbow should dig into your side better than a loose sleeve.

[zooma]

Zooma,

I'd say you're quite right to maintain a constant thickness of underclothing. Personally I think technical fabrics are better than cotton, warmer in the winter, and cooler in the summer. Cotton tends to get damp and claggy in the heat.

I shoot on an uninsulated and unheated range; wool long johns make a big difference in the winter.

There is one advantage for tailored sleeves in 10m air, a pointier left elbow should dig into your side better than a loose sleeve.

Would that be "technical wool" in your long johns Tim

A pointy left elbow sounds like a good idea - but not as good as a cunningly placed Velcro patch

[tim s]

No, not merino, too dear for me. Just Mountain Warehouse's ordinary wool.

Hmm, not sure velcro is legal if you're shooting to NSRA rules. Textured material (suede, Top-Grip rubber) is OK, but glue or spikes (thinking prone there), aren't allowed.