Long range airgun shooting

[Woodie]

Worse than when I wound down the rifle to 38 ft.lbs., mate.

I was using Bisley Magnums, graded, sorted and individually weighed - yes, it's tragic but so am I when I'm in 'nth-degree' mode.

My average 10-shot groups at 100 yards, shot indoors with 60 ft.lbs. measured just under 3 inches. As I say, some pellets landed on top of each other, but others veered off to all points around the 1 inch disc target, sometimes by as much as 6 inches.

Outdoors, using range flags every 10 yards to assess the wind, those 'rogue' pellets would often miss by a foot, when I could feel or see not a trace of wind. Most frustrating, I can tell you.

What was the spread of fps between those 10 shots?

[Greendogg]

I can spin, draw and fire with my walther cp88 and get a 1 inch group at 200 yards.

[Born Again]

What's the point Brian? there will then be accusations of thread doctoring to put him in a bad light.

Ask yourself this.

Why would I, or anybody else, seek to villify another shooter?. Envy? I don't think so. For the record, and the last time, I had doubts about the old fantasist when he started rambling.
I cut in when he started making claims that ultimately could damage our sport. Specifically that he is capable of punching a 1" target at 150 yards. Not grouping, not having a few sighters, but straight off the bat.
His second was the claim about never missing a rabbit over 100 yards. Totally risible and an encouragement to the gullible (and boy do we have a few) to start dropping pellets into live targets, completely against the work we all do to promote responsible hunting.

I will comment no more.

I would never suggest that you were envious of Harry, I know what you have achieved. When the original threads raged watching you and Harry arguing was like watching two people arguing about the plot of different films. You were taking little notice of his explanations and him little of yours. The only reference I saw of 100yd hunting was when he said that he was completing a 100yd group and a mixied rabbit stepped out from behind a log next to his target. The "never missed" quote was, I believe, caused by the clumsy mod editing I mentioned earlier.

Restoring the thread would end this now, we could see what had actually been said. I for one trust the mods to restore the thread correctly and will not be accusing anyone of editing the threads to show Harry in a bad light.

I stated in a previous thread, which may or may not be deleted, that I believed your original reaction was driven by the need to discourage the "differently intelligent" from attempting to hunt at these ranges, I have also recently posted that I very rarely hunt at more than 35yds myself, but this is paper punching fun and should be seen as such.

Harry should not be a victim of our need to educate our idiots, maybe he could have been asked to remove the hunting references but his work remains interesting and supported by evidence from other members. Baz claims to have hit a 12 bore cartridge 5 from 5 at 100yds and others I can't recall claimed similar results.

I'm going to try again as soon as decent weather allows, I hope others will too because it is an interesting diversion and maybe it will improve my technique at shorter ranges too. I doubt I will ever extend my hunting ranges but that's a different matter, that's hitting a target area not putting together a good group, vital difference.

[Terry D]

What was the spread of fps between those 10 shots?

At the muzzle, less than 10 f.p.s. At the target, often double that outdoors. I used regulated and non-regulated rifles, springers and gas-rams. Incidently, the two occasions I clamped the precharged rifles' actions to a rig, the groups actually got worse.

As so often happens, there are more questions than answers, mate.

[Terry D]

...BUT HOW THE HELL YOU LADS CAN EVEN SEE A ONE AND A HALF INCH TARGET AT 150 YARDS SUPRISES ME...

A 35X SCOPE HELPS, MATE.

[JohnBam]

TO BE HONEST GENTS ALL THIS LONG RANGE SHOOTING IS WELL OVER MY HEAD BUT HOW THE HELL YOU LADS CAN EVEN SEE A ONE AND A HALF INCH TARGET AT 150 YARDS SUPRISES ME.I THINK YOUR DREAMING MYSELF

I was using a 1 inch dot at about 94 yds and could see it no probs with 10x mag. Could even see the pellet holes as well.

[RichardH]

I was always respectful to Harry during his short time on here, but having extensively researched this area of airgunning, I don't believe it's possible to produce reliable, humane accuracy, under field conditions, at 150 yards with any 27ft.lbs. air rifle.

So you would disagree with Romsey publishings decision to pay for and print the article then?

[Born Again]

First, there has never been any 'vilification of Harry' from me, not once, never.

Secondly, the Mods took a decision for what they believed to be valid reasons. You may not agree with that decision but the Mods have a job to do and decision-making is a part of that.

I didn't say there had been any from you, I can't remember all the names but yours wasn't there.

Regarding the mods decision, I have given this some more thought and I think I can see your reasons now, I'll drop it.

[Baldie]

I would have thought trying to get a 1" group with any [light] projectile at 100 yards using air gun speeds would have been an exercise in futility if there were any sort of breeze or wind.

I've also hunted for years out to 80 yards and watched small wind variances move the pellets. I have NO problem with people claiming super accurate technique, super accurate guns, perfect pellets. Way beyond my ability - but that's no reason to decry it. It's the wind that stops you being able to produce that perfect shot to order.

Harry asserts you can read the wind. I say you can't at that distance. I have a grand that says that nobody else can.

all this talk of windless conditions, bolox!! the whole point is it doesnt matter what the wind is but say you go oout tomorrow and put up a yd square sheet of paper at 100 yds, draw a dot near the top, all your doing is aiming at the dot! doesnt matter if the pellets strikes 2 feet below the dot and the 7mph wind blows the pellet 16 inches to the left, the point is if the rifle is shooting consistantly at a known power, the pellets are reasonable all the same with no visual damage or impairments and the wind remains at 7mph and the rifle is shot from the same position every time!

you could do it canting the rifle at 30 degrees if you liked or even upside down, but as long as the 5 shot group all all shot in the exact same position and the constants are all the same!

by constants i mean anything that could alter the flight or trajectory of the pellet!

There's nothing constant about wind, and over 100 yards to 150 yards, I'd expect a couple of variations over the route. How can anyone 'read' two or three different speeds of something that's invisible and remote?

In these conditions it would be hard (if not impossible) to get an HMR round [20grn] travelling at 2500fps to group inside an inch at 150 yards. It may well be capable of it in still air, (just), but in even light (variable) wind?

As I suggested, it would need something like the inside of an aircraft hangar [windless] to prove the air rifle/pellet combination was even a possibility at producing sub inch groups around 100+ yards.

I'd be interested to hear about ANY air rifle/pellet combination that could better an HMR in accuracy, and so would most FAC shooters.


In that light, I'd say Gary needn't worry much about paying out on his challenge any time soon.

[Born Again]

TO BE HONEST GENTS ALL THIS LONG RANGE SHOOTING IS WELL OVER MY HEAD BUT HOW THE HELL YOU LADS CAN EVEN SEE A ONE AND A HALF INCH TARGET AT 150 YARDS SUPRISES ME.I THINK YOUR DREAMING MYSELF

TIME TO GET RID OF THAT 4x40 MARK

[Terry D]

So you would disagree with Romsey publishings decision to pay for and print the article then?

Absolutely not. That was a judgement call made by someone whose job it is to do just that. A bit like the Mods on here, really.

All the best.

[RichardH]

Fair comment.

The bit I cant get my head around is whats there to disbelieve?

Holding a rifle well enough to shoot a group like that (with a centrefire) is easy, I can do it and most serious riflemen can also particularly from a bench as Harry did.

So theres no extra special skill in MOA marksmanship

He never professed to hit given targets merely acheived groups anywhere on a piece of paper against a single aim point therefore reading the wind becomes irrelevent as long as its consistent through the shot string and your piece of paper is big enough.

The whole exercise is purely a function of an accurate and consistent rifle, consistent ammunition and consistent wind.

Interestingly people chose to rip Harry apart wheras his actual involvement is possibly the least significant part his equipment and weather would be infinitely more important

Richard

[Terry D]

The whole exercise is purely a function of an accurate and consistent rifle, consistent ammunition and consistent wind.

Really Richard? Yet, without any wind, and using the finest hardware available to anyone, anywhere, my own modest efforts and those of some extremely talented marksmen, failed to produce consistent sub-inch groups at 100 yards.

I tried, I really did, as did others. We couldn't do it, mate.

[RichardH]

Depending on your skill at shooting it a 30ftlb rifle will extend your range considerably, plus of course much more hitting power, ignore people that say it only gives you a few yards extra, either they cant get an FAC or they cant shoot usually

I have humanely despatched rabbits in excess of 100yds with one in the right conditions and that aint BS its fact although the Ripley I was using was over 30ftlb, 80yds will be no problem if its a calm day

Case in point

[RichardH]

Really Richard? Yet, without any wind, and using the finest hardware available to anyone, anywhere, my own modest efforts and those of some extremely talented marksmen, failed to produce consistent sub-inch groups at 100 yards.

I tried, I really did, as did others. We couldn't do it, mate.

I understand but you are missing the point.

I've never seen you shoot

But we'll take it as read you're more than competent

A sub MOA hold from a bench is easy, have a look at some of the groups in the firearms forum so the human factor is definately do-able.

The limiting factors are the rifle, the ammunition and the conditions, unfortunately people jumped to rubbish the poster and his skills or lack of them in reading wind.

As he was only shooting groups NOT a fixed 1" target reading the wind becomes academic as long as it remains a consistent condition (and your paper is large enough) that was my clear understanding from watching the posts in real time.

Unfortunately some editting allowed this misunderstanding to reach its logical conclusion before we could examine his kit and weather conditions in more detail.

I've no idea of the wind or atmospherics in Harry's Australian valley and sadly now we are unlikely to get to the bottom of things.

Richard