Antique Firearm collecting

[Fronteria]

Fronteria, do you know if your carbine had previously been saw cut?
I got my fingers burned (figuratively speaking) on a MH MkII Artilery Carbine I bought from a stall at the Antique and Classic Fair at Bisley a few years ago. The gun wasn't fabulous, but it looked the part and the bore was nice and firing pin in tact. I forked over the requisite amount and took my purchase home. Over the next few months I collected all the stuff together to re-load for it and once I'd done that I got it put on my ticket for use. The first shot I fired was a light load and went off well enough. All seemed well untill I came to eject the empty case; it was stuck fast. After alot of hammering and swearing I got the case out and saw a strange ridge accross the case neck that looked like the negative impression of a groove cut in the chamber. Sure enough, the carbine had been saw cut in the past right at the front of the nox form to make it a D.P. rifle. What some one had then done was weld a half washer in the cut and smooth off the weld on the outside. I have to say externally the job was very good and it was impossible to tell it had been done. I think the only thing that prevented that washer blowing out was the case. If it had been cut further up the barrel I recon it could have burst, or at least blown the washer out vertically.
So when I look at a MH now I always check the top, internal surface of the chamber with a small dentist's mirror.

Hi. Harry
I think it's quite possible that the barrel had been cut and welded but we couldn't see any evidence of it which makes it all the more dangerous.
Before we sent the Martini Henry to proof the barrel and action went under a microscope as we have come across cut and welded barrels and actions before we did not see anything that aroused our suspicion of some bodge up having been done on the gun, to be honest with you both me and the gunsmith were tempted to fire the gun and not get it proofed but common sense prevailed.
I have some photographs of the gun after it failed proof but don't know how to put them on the site for you to see so you can make up your own mind.
If anyone can let me know how to do it please let me know.
jeff

[Triumph]

I have managed to collect the following without noticing,

One SB percussion shotgun in 14g...looks English....shootable.

One SB percussion shotgun in 14g... a sporterised 3 band Enfield...I think...shootable

One 5 shot Belgium percussion revolver....looks like an Adams copy and is complete.

Two 6 shot pinfire Belgium revolvers...trigger return springs missing.

One very old .22 single shot starting pistol....complete

One Nock percussion pocket pistol......springs missing and hammer broken.

May get them on the 'Sales' page soon as part of the never ending clear out.

[njaw]

I've taken a few pictures of some of my flintlocks. When I have time, I will write a full description of each item (all part of the fun). Hope you enjoy them...

http://s382.photobucket.com/albums/o...view=slideshow

[harry mac]

For the most part pre WWII exposed hammer gallery rifles by Winchester and Colt are my particular poison.

Hi Johno. PM waiting to be inbound for you but I'm getting notification your in box is full. Do a spot of clearing out will you?

[robinghewitt]

If I post a link to my website you have to promise not to tell me off for firing the 6 pounder with a fag lighter. I know we've just had a big safety rant but some things really hack me off

[Jim McArthur]

I promise!

Jim

[Jim McArthur]

For the most part pre WWII exposed hammer gallery rifles by Winchester and Colt are my particular poison.

Sounds like something that could really grab my interest also!

Jim

[robinghewitt]

Had a look at my website and it was very out of date, most of the links were dead so I cut it right back.

However it could be a pretty cool URL for this proposed collecting network

http://www.flintlocks.co.uk

[Jim McArthur]

There's also a current Thread about collecting in the Rimfire/Centerfire/Shotguns/FAC air Section.

Did you know that collecting is a valid reason to have a FAC?

Jim

[MikB]

[QUOTE=barryeye;3745827]

However I was talking to a fellow collector today and he was of the opinion that steel goes "off" with age and that 150 year old rifle barrel will not be as strong as when it was made no matter if it has been well cared for and never fired.
Barry

I have this impression too, and I suspect several decades might be enough for some materials.

Back in the '80s I had a 1915 Luger that I shot extensively and I knew a few others with them. Mine and others broke in interesting ways - toggle pins sheared one side, flakes chipping out of extractors, and the common favourite was the tiny lug that retains the extractor breaking. Occasionally these could be blamed on hot ammo like 2z, but most shooters used mild to medium loads. Repairs were often possible, though sometimes challenging...

I formed the impression that steel could go 'crystalline' over time, as it was the older Lugers (which were often the best-made) that seemed most affected, and break surfaces usually had a lustrous, 'frosted' appearance.

Regards,
MikB

[Jim McArthur]

[QUOTE=MikB;3748460]

I have this impression too, and I suspect several decades might be enough for some materials.

Back in the '80s I had a 1915 Luger that I shot extensively and I knew a few others with them. Mine and others broke in interesting ways - toggle pins sheared one side, flakes chipping out of extractors, and the common favourite was the tiny lug that retains the extractor breaking. Occasionally these could be blamed on hot ammo like 2z, but most shooters used mild to medium loads. Repairs were often possible, though sometimes challenging...

I formed the impression that steel could go 'crystalline' over time, as it was the older Lugers (which were often the best-made) that seemed most affected, and break surfaces usually had a lustrous, 'frosted' appearance.

Regards,
MikB

Most interesting, Mik. And another good reason to be wary about shooting those older pieces.

Jim

[loach369]

2Z ammunition in Lugers was never a good idea! I recall a mint Artillery version getting a split barrel after 20 or so rounds of 2Z rapid fire from the snail drum mag

[mjohno]

Sounds like something that could really grab my interest also!

Jim

Jim,
You would certainly have a lot more choice your side of the pond.
If you get chance pick up the two books written about the Winchester slide-actions by Schwing.

[njaw]

Had a look at my website and it was very out of date, most of the links were dead so I cut it right back.

However it could be a pretty cool URL for this proposed collecting network

http://www.flintlocks.co.uk

You have some cracking clips on there Robin! Particularly like the wall gun. What sort of bruise does that leave I wonder!?

www.flintlocks.co.uk has got to be the finest URL our there for a dedicated collecting site. What does everyone else think?

[edbear2]

[QUOTE=barryeye;3745827]

Ah. Now that could be the answer. I too have seen similar rifles including Martinis. However I was talking to a fellow collector today and he was of the opinion that steel goes "off" with age and that 150 year old rifle barrel will not be as strong as when it was made no matter if it has been well cared for and never fired. I'm still not sure about this but confess that it is out of my personal exterience to answer.
I own a number of Martinis and up until now have had no doubts about any of them that have been checked by a gunsmith or have come from a prevous collector that has shot them. I now have doubts.
Barry

Hi Barry........This theory of your friends ......There is no scientific basis for it......Known and tested alloy steel compositions which have a "proof" or "yield" load done on test pieces as specimens, and where this data has been recorded, and the said pieces have been retested, have all shown no change in their original properties even after many years.......The problems are that; The methods used in the days when a lot of these old guns were produced were not as accurate as since the early 1900's (and actually in the 1950's, the Linz-Donawitz process of oxygen control).This is the main problem....A tube may pass the proof load, but there were no x-rays or ndt testing in those days!...on many old guns also there is no way, apart from obvious bulging or visible indications, of overloading, or excessive stress cycles which are leading to failure, The other comment of a close grained, grey appearance on a break only gives an indication of a fairly hard, and possibly brittle composition....It may be that the piece was not tempered properly, and so was susceptible to breakage, or it may have been a correctly designed part, taking a high load, that just failed due to excessive strain...(it would be interesting to break a similar part that was of recent manufacture to compare the grain structure)..a bit like a cast iron part....will take huge compression, and steady loading, but wack it somewhere where it is thin with a hammer.......see what I mean?

The older stuff I have shot, and seen used, is normally loaded light in deference not so much as to it's age, but to it's unknown state.....at the end of the day, you are dealing with high pressures on parts that you do not know the history of, do not know if they were made from the exact design and composition of metal intended etc....The craftsmen and barrel makers had great skills in those days, but the results varied a huge amount compared to what we have learnt in the last century.

Just to give a tiny idea of the science of basic carbon steels;

http://steel.keytometals.com/Articles/Art62.htm

Note the huge changes in properties given by the addition of just 0.1 -3 % of different alloying elements, and therefore the result of getting it very, very, slightly wrong!.....For sure, you could have done basic hardness, ductility, toughness tests back in the days when some of the older guns were made....but in no way could you be as 100% confident in the final product as in recent times.

ie.......the difference between a horse shoe, and a differential gear is about 0.6% carbon content!..scary!