New ISSF rules

[RobinC]

This is being extensively covered on Stirton and the International site TargetTalk on Pilkguns but for those on here who have not seen it, the ISSF has just published a summary of Approved Rule changes for 2013 and they are a bombshell.
Kept nicely quiet until leaked last week they will require changes to rifles, modification if possible to boots and trousers otherwise replacement, and they have effectively made all current jackets illegal by banning any seam on the left side of the jacket in the standing position. So that's new jackets, boots and trousers altered or replaced!
They have also banned "Vibration reduction systems" from pistols and rifles, which if literal would ban all current air rifles and air pistols back to about 1950, but there is some confusion as to what that means, most are interpreting it to mean muzzle brakes or even sight movement reduction systems like the anti wobble on cameras!
So we got no legacy from the Olympics and now our international body has shafted us! We don't need to worry about future legislation when we have an International governing body that is trying to close down the sport.
Robin

[The Doctor]

Hi Robin

In terms of 'anti-vibration devices' are we talking specifically towards the notion of stabilizers in etc or is the wording typically ISSF-vague !!

Lee

[McTrucky]

Hi Robin,

Are we being a little bit negative here? Being a pistol shooter, I can't really comment on the rifle side of things - but anything which makes the score more dependant on skill and less dependant on the money spent on equipment should be a good thing should it not? I accept that will not go down well with someone who has just made a big investment - and that the rule changes should be published two to three years ahead of implementation when enforcing equipment changes that have a cost impact on the average shooter.

Regards
McT

[harvey_s]

Certainly with regard to pistol shooters this may affect recent Styer owners whose guns have the 'Styer stabilizer' fitted and some Feinwerkbaus with 'recoil absorbers' fitted, however Morini's will at worst just require a new muzzle brake although they shouldn't because technically these don't reduce vibration during the firing cycle and only come in to play after the pellet has left the end of the barrel.
Not that this would ruin my international aspirations unduly

[wonky donky]

I have been looking at the rule changes since their publication & have had various discussions with shooters including internationals.

One thing is for certain the rule on vibration reduction systems needs clarification. Anschutz for example advertised as having a stock fitting system as reducing vibration, on the other hand some manufacturers do not advertise their recoil absorbers as being vibration reducers, didn't Walther advertise their carbon barrel shroud as reducing vibration? so it begs the question of what is a vibration reduction system exactly?

As for shooting jackets, this is no surprise, I was aware of changes coming into force almost two years ago.

What does surprise me is shooting trousers have not been banned in the standing position for rifle.........this has been talked about now for at least 10years & my understanding is the rule change had only been postponed & not discarded completely?

As for the proposed changes for the finals, yet to be ratified, I am in full agreement that finalists should start from zero & not carry their scores through. Lets be fair, in the 100mtrs final you don't get a 10mtr start & so on because you were the fastest qualifier.

[Rutty]

As for the proposed changes for the finals, yet to be ratified, I am in full agreement that finalists should start from zero & not carry their scores through. Lets be fair, in the 100mtrs final you don't get a 10mtr start & so on because you were the fastest qualifier.

However, consider the 3P Rifle 3x40 and use the analogy of the marathon instead. You don't stop the marathon 1500m from the finish line and then expect the first 8 runners to settle the result by racing over the remaining distance.

Rutty

[wonky donky]

However, consider the 3P Rifle 3x40 and use the analogy of the marathon instead. You don't stop the marathon 1500m from the finish line and then expect the first 8 runners to settle the result by racing over the remaining distance.

Rutty

I can't see your reasoning comparing it to the marathon? You are only making assumptions now, The 3p finals format have not been released & no decisions have been made. There's no point in getting bent out of shape over something that may not happen!

However, You could take the view the current format is unfair..why not shoot it prone or kneeling...a gold won't be won in 3p on the prone.....but it can be lost!

The 3p is a multi event & should be treated as such & compared to the other multi discipline events such as the pentathlon built on points gained from other sub events within the discipline, or should it? I don't know, but now is your last chance to voice your opinion to the issf governing body as there is a meeting in November to finalise the rules.

[harvey_s]

Personally I don't know why they didn't ban all the silly super stiff clothing and boots with oversized soles anyway.
They are just a form of cheating IMO that got a toe-hold and was subsequently copied by all and sundry.
You might as well go the whole hog and don snowshoes and a suit of armour and lock the joints out.
The clothes are not practical and have no place in any normal shooting activity involving a rifle.
Just my thoughts....

[RobinC]

Hi Robin

In terms of 'anti-vibration devices' are we talking specifically towards the notion of stabilizers in etc or is the wording typically ISSF-vague !!

Lee

Lee
How's the cycling going? Having just returned from Germany, and having met manufactureres, no one there seemed bothered about this aspect, it is written vaguely and they all think it is aimed at the camera steadying devices that have experimentaly been tried on sights.
The concern was about the clothing rule changes which would be catastophic for all serious rifle shooters as at a few months notice it would require all new kit. I have had an e mail from Rajmond Debevec this morning who has resigned from the Athletes committee over this as it appears virtualy non of the items changed had been raised as concerns or even discussed at the committee, the original and mostly sensible proposals which every one expected to be the new rules and have been in circulation for a year have been ignored and these revisions have been made in secret at ISSF headquarters by a group of old men.
Robin

[wonky donky]

The concern was about the clothing rule changes which would be catastophic for all serious rifle shooters as at a few months notice it would require all new kit. I have had an e mail from Rajmond Debevec this morning who has resigned from the Athletes committee over this as it appears virtualy non of the items changed had been raised as concerns or even discussed at the committee, the original and mostly sensible proposals which every one expected to be the new rules and have been in circulation for a year have been ignored and these revisions have been made in secret at ISSF headquarters by a group of old men.
Robin

Hi Robin,

like me you were an international shooter, lets stick with my discipline for a moment & cast your mind back to the mid to late 70's when only the Germans, Russians, Americans & one or two other "amateur" shooters had leather shooting trousers & jackets.

Unlike them we had full time jobs in the real world. We were not allowed sponsorship of any kind & had to provide our kit based on what we could afford.

My kit was a 300s, Andrew Tucker jacket (remember them, almost like shooting in shirt sleeves) a pair of Puma leather trainers, a pair of jeans & a bag to put it in.

Malcolm, Sarah & Barry did have leather jackets but not trousers.....think they were canvas?

The bull was 0.5mm bigger than it is now as was the 10mtr aiming mark. The course of fire was 40 shots with only 10 sighters allowed prior to your first scoring shot.

So the equipment has changed beyond recognition really but the targets are only 0.5mm smaller & the course of fire 20 shots greater.

In 1977 the world record was 395, today it's 600 then the sum of the final 10 shots that we did not have to shoot.

So my point is have the shooting skills improved or could we have shot the sort of scores shot today with our equipment given the opportunity, funding & most importantly not having to hold down a full time job.

I suspect no not quite, mainly due to the quality of the pellets of the day, even H&N & RWS have improved no end. But I do think we would easily shoot into the 590's, one thing is for certain, we will never know for sure

Lets not forget, top shooters today do this full time, it is their job in reality, they are sponsored some by clothing manufacturers or other organisation.

Is it not about time sponsorship & these high class expensive artificial shooting aids were totally banned making our sport available to all & not just those well heeled & privileged.

I am sorry to say the way I see the Olympics today is most athletes should be good, it's there job. One day it would not surprise me to see an Olympic gold medal being given for a champion welder, or best brick layer. Sour grapes?.No just the sad state of affairs in the world today!

[RobinC]

Wonky
My concern is not for the elite athletes, and the "get rid of the kit " brigade simply do not understand, most of them are pistol shooters with no rifle knowledge or old men living in the past, or just plinkers, my concern is for the developing shooters and the grass roots of the sport, which is the future. 10 mt rifle is very different to pistol, it is not the same sport, oh and I shot pistol internationaly. The people who think the kit does the shooting have clearly not shot rifle at any standard, it makes a difference, but not a lot.

The top few in the world could shoot in underwear and still get near enough the same scores, the old school do not understand that the big advances have come in technique not equipment, forget what you think you know, we have just returned from Germany, we spent time at MEC with my wife getting coaching from Maik Eckhardt, he changed her technique and her performance visibly improved, and this is on an experienced shooter. The modern kit benefits the club shooters the most, and most importantly it lets young shooters start with out getting back or ankle injuries. It also allows the new shooters to develops easier, I work hard to coach young people and the biggest hurdle is getting them to a standard where they are encouraged and do not get disheartened. It is a factor in increasing the number of competitive target shooters. Its not compulsory, if a shooters wants to shoot in shorts and tee shirt they can.
At 65 I shoot for fun, but my wife was a GB international in Malcolm and Sarahs time, she retired 25 years ago as it was too physically demanding, now at 62 she is shooting again and is not far away from her standard of 25 years ago, this is only possible due to the kit.
Ban it as the ill informed or old men want, or make every one buy new different kit as some on the ISSF want and there will be many who will retire, pack up or just plain not start.
Robin

[wonky donky]

The modern kit benefits the club shooters the most, and most importantly it lets young shooters start with out getting back or ankle injuries. It also allows the new shooters to develops easier, I work hard to coach young people and the biggest hurdle is getting them to a standard where they are encouraged and do not get disheartened. It is a factor in increasing the number of competitive target shooters. Its not compulsory, if a shooters wants to shoot in shorts and tee shirt they can.
At 65 I shoot for fun, but my wife was a GB international in Malcolm and Sarahs time, she retired 25 years ago as it was too physically demanding, now at 62 she is shooting again and is not far away from her standard of 25 years ago, this is only possible due to the kit.

Robin

I must admit to agreeing with most of what you say but I have listened to that old argument about avoiding back & ankle injury by using quality modern kit so many times. I don't know or have never heard about anyone sustaining permanent injury from not using kit in the last 45yrs & when I ask for evidence of this type of injury there never seems to be any. That does not mean I disbelieve injury can be averted from using modern kit.

Conversely, I am like you & Carol age wise, the only way I can shoot these days is with kit due to health problems & even then sometimes it's impossible. The last time I shot 10mtr rifle was 2004 at the Welsh open, I only shot the first round due to ill health & finished with 571 deciding enough was enough, If I can no longer perform to the standard I want because circumstances won't allow me too, then I will stop shooting competitions.
If it had not been for modern kit I would have stopped shooting long before, I only shoot Bell Target now but still managed to finish one league this year with a possible average.

As for coaching young shooters I had the privilege to instruct & then coach 3 young men at different times all of which went on to become junior welsh squad members. One was very promising but all met girls had children & never came back to the sport,,,,,,,,,,What a shame!

Despite how my posts may appear to read I am not against anything; but I am in favor of discussion on how to take the sport forward.

I have shot at Norwich club many years ago & I intend to go to some of the opens on the circuit in the not too distant future offering support to a good friend of mine who is a former 10mtr British Champion come out of retirement, so you never know our paths may cross once more.

good shooting

[RobinC]

Hi Wonky
I think we are definately kindred spirits, I plan to be at the British Championships looking after a group of new young shooters (and one at bus pass!) as long as the new rules don't make every ones kit illegal, my gut feeling is the out rage at these stupid changes may back fire on them and they may rethink them, I'm hearing about some very influentual people who have complaints heading ISSF direction.
You can't miss my wife, she is the one with the subtle purple and pink suit, I shall be sat some where near.
Good Shooting
Robin

[RobF]

Hi Wonky
I think we are definately kindred spirits, I plan to be at the British Championships looking after a group of new young shooters (and one at bus pass!) as long as the new rules don't make every ones kit illegal, my gut feeling is the out rage at these stupid changes may back fire on them and they may rethink them, I'm hearing about some very influentual people who have complaints heading ISSF direction.
You can't miss my wife, she is the one with the subtle purple and pink suit, I shall be sat some where near.
Good Shooting
Robin

Remember at the champs the ISSF competition is seperate, not many enter anyway from recollection.

[harvey_s]

my concern is for the developing shooters and the grass roots of the sport, which is the future.

Surely the biggest argument of all against the clothing, you know yourself how expensive it is and hence the anger at the rule change.
It's so expensive surely this must be very off-putting for new shooters, the thought of having to purchase your own kit plus a rifle etc....?
At this point I will declare that I am a pistol shooter as Robin knows, However I do also shoot rifles at weekends and this is where I am qualified to offer my own opinion, which is that I have no desire to shoot 10m precision air rifle - not because I'm not interested in doing so (quite the reverse) however, I have no desire at all to dress up in what looks like a two piece divers outfit (complete with the bloody boots ) and I also lack the disposable income to finance the purchase of same even if I did...
If it was protective clothing and therefore necessary I'd agree 100% with you, but it isn't - it exists to give a specialized competitive advantage.
If it was removed from the sport - do you honestly believe there would be any serious detriment to the sport.
I don't, sure some older shooters would find it harder to compete with younger, fitter shooters (no offence intended) - but thats nature for you and true in nearly all sports and actually would serve to distinguish outstanding achievement IMO.