Old School Venom lazaglide Vs Modern V-mach Weihrauchs...

[MattyBoy]

I think it's fair to say that there are threads on here which have pretty well established the transfer port dimensions, the bore and the stroke for the ultimate 11.2 ft lb springer.

If the new V-Mach tunes have the correct stroke length and transfer port size then they will be amazing.

If the stroke is too long then they may not be as amazing as they could be.

Don't ask me for the actual figures as I don't have them to hand

Matty

[bigtoe01]

I have had the pleasuring of shooting 2 older Venom guns just recently. Both are sleeved barrel 77's that started off at .22's and finished after conversion as .177's. One is a sporter and the other a field target gun.

Now the sporter has a aluminium piston, full buttoned, 84mm stroke and is an utter bitch to cock...who ever buys this will have a rifle with a wonderfully fast locktime and a left arm with tennis elbow. As a piece of engineering its wonderful, the engraving on the gun is superb...would I shoot it...not on your life.

Now the second is a field target conversion, has no engraving, comes in a FT stock and again has a sleeved .22 barrel. This one had been abused by someone looking for power, it had 3 tophats smashed into each other in the piston and the spring had 2ft of preload added. When it was stripped just 1 tophat was serviceable so was retained, it shot at 10fpe with just the spring guide for preload but was still a little stiff. The owner asked if I had any other springs to hand so I offered one of the custom wound ones I have to test...the result is a gun that spits out exacts at 10.6fpe and will put a pellet thru a 5mm hole at 50 yards, it can be cocked with one finger.

Now the plane jane FT rifle is not as pretty as the sporter, the engineering is not as involved as it had just a steel piston, but it shot way way better and I could have had the gun just last night for 600quid.

The question though was do they shoot better than the guns I tune for myself...


Nope they don't...so i kept the 600quid in my pocket.

The sporter is sold, i think i know who to also...its nice, but you better get weight lifting and build up those muscles

[Baxterbasics]

I have had the pleasuring of shooting 2 older Venom guns just recently. Both are sleeved barrel 77's that started off at .22's and finished after conversion as .177's. One is a sporter and the other a field target gun.

Now the sporter has a aluminium piston, full buttoned, 84mm stroke and is an utter bitch to cock...who ever buys this will have a rifle with a wonderfully fast locktime and a left arm with tennis elbow. As a piece of engineering its wonderful, the engraving on the gun is superb...would I shoot it...not on your life.

Now the second is a field target conversion, has no engraving, comes in a FT stock and again has a sleeved .22 barrel. This one had been abused by someone looking for power, it had 3 tophats smashed into each other in the piston and the spring had 2ft of preload added. When it was stripped just 1 tophat was serviceable so was retained, it shot at 10fpe with just the spring guide for preload but was still a little stiff. The owner asked if I had any other springs to hand so I offered one of the custom wound ones I have to test...the result is a gun that spits out exacts at 10.6fpe and will put a pellet thru a 5mm hole at 50 yards, it can be cocked with one finger.

Now the plane jane FT rifle is not as pretty as the sporter, the engineering is not as involved as it had just a steel piston, but it shot way way better and I could have had the gun just last night for 600quid.

The question though was do they shoot better than the guns I tune for myself...


Nope they don't...so i kept the 600quid in my pocket.

The sporter is sold, i think i know who to also...its nice, but you better get weight lifting and build up those muscles

Interesting, very interesting Tony

[bigtoe01]

Interesting, very interesting Tony

I thought you might say that

[Shed tuner]

Interesting, very interesting Tony

It is interesting, kinda supports the light piston / high preload = low hold sensitivity and snappy (gasram like), as opposed to heavier weight piston / lower preload = softer but potentially more hold sensitive.

Personally I prefer to err toward the snappier side, say about 2" of preload on a moderate spring. I don't like v. low preload guns, they need heavier pistons and feel slow. Then again I like gasrams too

[bigtoe01]

It is interesting, kinda supports the light piston / high preload = low hold sensitivity and snappy (gasram like), as opposed to heavier weight piston / lower preload = softer but potentially more hold sensitive.

Personally I prefer to err toward the snappier side, say about 2" of preload on a moderate spring. I don't like v. low preload guns, they need heavier pistons and feel slow. Then again I like gasrams too

The only issue is you end up with a 10.5fpe rifle that is almost uncockable...it had a nice shot cycle however...but you have to cock it first.

[Shed tuner]

The only issue is you end up with a 10.5fpe rifle that is almost uncockable...it had a nice shot cycle however...but you have to cock it first.

Agree completely, so obviously we have to compromise somewhat... the 2" of preload with 3mm gauge springs in my TXs is a good compromise IMHO.

Pity you are a gazillion miles away, we could compare shot cycles

[LeeO]

Could it be the starting ingredient's,?
I've read a few time's on here the older the better with HW's,?
I'm sure there's more than one engineer or tradesman on here who'd agree base material's dont seem as good as even ten years ago,let alone twenty,

[Baxterbasics]

My Venom lazaglided 77 trophy would have cost £510.00 in 1987-what does that equate to in modern money? You see where I'm going with this......

[davegee59]

what a load of old codswallop tony that 77 will outshoot any of your gasrammed springers lol
it is a bit hard to cock tho,but its not bad for me coz i'm a big un,and you know i do prefer a nice soft plob of the old venoms
but this is the only springer that ive found 100% accurate as i'm far too lazy,this thing shoots the same held or rested,its just sooooo quick the pellets up the range before you feel anything,but then again i'm no expert like you ive only been shooting and messing with springers for a couple of weeks,i haven't got a clue
see you sunday toe

[bigtoe01]

what a load of old codswallop tony that 77 will outshoot any of your gasrammed springers lol
it is a bit hard to cock tho,but its not bad for me coz i'm a big un,and you know i do prefer a nice soft plob of the old venoms
but this is the only springer that ive found 100% accurate as i'm far too lazy,this thing shoots the same held or rested,its just sooooo quick the pellets up the range before you feel anything,but then again i'm no expert like you ive only been shooting and messing with springers for a couple of weeks,i haven't got a clue
see you sunday toe

its not as good as my HW55 Dave and you know it LOL


Its a beautiful rifle...im not going to knock the workmanship on it as it is way way better than anything I can do, I just did not like the way it cocked, as much as I don't like the way my 440TH cocks either. And as you say its devastatingly accurate. A collector would buy it for what it is, a superb piece of airgun engineering...and leave it as is, i would tinker with it and it wouldn't be a venom any more.

Now the one that Les has/had...I like that one more.

Thinking about it I bet a spring change would transform the gun, im wondering if something longer/thinner would soften up the cocking cycle but deliver similar power..the gun will remain quick and not hold sensitive due to the ally piston it has I bet.

last..Dave, you know I know you taught me everything you know.... or is it I know ...especially the 9/64th part

I will say this, Venom did experiment...seen 4 old 77's now and not one is the same spec as the other.

Im shooting my .22 hw80 gas ram on sunday...the one you hate

[bigtoe01]

Agree completely, so obviously we have to compromise somewhat... the 2" of preload with 3mm gauge springs in my TXs is a good compromise IMHO.

Pity you are a gazillion miles away, we could compare shot cycles

Jon

My HW55 is long stroked, uses a somewhat smallsih spring (wire dia) and due to restricted spring length room is limited to 10.5FPE although I may be able to get 2 more coils in if i machine the trigger block face back a tad (like i did on Pauls 50s) The piston is light..200g ish (forgot exactly but will measure it up again), the firing cycle is fast....the accuracy is very high (superdomes at 750fps or so). I had to sleeve the transfer port down to 2.7mm from 4mm to get it to behave, at 4mm it was brutal on the trigger finger after 20 shots or so. Now I believe i get away with the 55 as it is due to the piston weight, i have a similar setup in my .22 280k, i short stroked to 64mm and this too had a 4mm transfer port 22mm long and at this stroke it easy made 11+ BUT due to the lower swept volume and the heavier weight of the piston it was not slammy...but very very gas rammy. I decided to follow the model of the 55 and sleeve the port down and went to 2.6mm with a venturi at the piston end and 10mm at the breech end opened to 2.8mm...utter transformation although the power went down a tad due to the more restrictive port...so I added 4mm of stroke back on and left the 4mm of preload i lost off the spring...end result was 99.9% the same as that at 64mm but more power.

The question however is what is better, light weight fast pistons with longer stroke, or heavier pistons with shorter stroke giving the same power. Dave's 77 is supremely fast, i watched him shoot it and he was in awe of the accuracy...truly all pellets thru the same hole at 30yards, BUT I was seeing the same from a 440TH with a very different shot cycle off a bag and off hand...totally different setup with a much heavier piston.

I like the 55, i like the accuracy of the 440TH...which is better? I have no clue

[davegee59]

dont forget to bring my 55 bigballs,i mean bigtoe lol

[Happy-Harry]

Must say that I prefer the "feel and flow" of a more traditionally tuned rifle, - cocking ease, gentle recoil, and being able to watch the pellet every moment of its flight time.

I feel I shoot them better, I feel more in control; but when ever I run a tape measure over group sizes the faster snappier locktimes of modern glided rifles they better my others, so I can never dispute they do the job better, nor that the cocking action is anything other than silent and creamy.

I have to conceed they "do more of the work than I do", but I agree they feel more Theoben than they used to.

[Baxterbasics]

This is a great observation-exactly how I feel about the older style Vs modern V-mach. I have had a brief comparison today-changing triggers/stock etc, both shoot well, the V-mach 97k being slightly "harsher" than the Lazaglided 77k.
After swapping bits between the rifles, they both need properly zeroing in-both scopes are plumbed and set for correct eye-relief, need tweaking tommorrow am then try and set the zero's properly.
The one thing I am finding hardest is shooting a spring rifle prone-kneeling fine, prone-well, its a work in progress