Bsa magnum 240

[harvey_s]

I've had a .177 BSA Magnum as well for many years, super fit to the hand, best pistol trigger I've ever owned
accurate as hell! once you realise it needs a heavy pellet (crosman ultra magnum) .......

You might have a point here - Like you I used to feed mine on a diet of meaty 9.3 grain RWS Supermags which are a heavy match sytle pellet - and like you I had no accuracy issues.....something to try perhaps?

[clarky]

Owned 2 45's the .22 was a dream gun the .177 was impossible to group with,

Did all the stuff you do full strip etc and it was still a nightmare,

I've had a .177 BSA Magnum as well for many years, super fit to the hand, best pistol trigger I've ever owned
accurate as hell! once you realise it needs a heavy pellet (crosman ultra magnum) sights are all metal (plastic???)

The 45's are gone the BSA remains,

Nuff Said Innit.

The .177 HW45 could produce sublime accuracy provided all trace of grease is removed from the gun. The 45 hits almost ideal parameters (I have run the numbers) for combustion if anything near flash point finds its way into the gun. I might agree that the .177 compression ratio will have an even greater effect in this regard and will agree that the .22 is the better shooter. However, cleaned out, with a hint of high flashpoint grease for the spring (if you must use it) and the .177 45 can produce very good accuracy if using RWS flat heads.
However, the Magnum can not unfortunately.
There are key reasons as to why this is the case but once sorted it out it can achieve quite good accuracy which can mount a challenge to a Tempest....reasonable accuracy with consistency issues if not maintained.
Key problem areas is a barrel which is far too short for the compression ratio, particularly in .177 (controlled tests conducted by TR Robb proved it) Hit and miss fits of the Lexan guide rod.
Lexan being an easily moulded plastic but awful quality in comparison with say Delrin. Would much prefer to have seen Delrin which was machined properly. The consequence of which is moulding flash, and slightly warped guides. Try one in a lathe to see what I am saying.
Breech seal reliability seems to be something of a hit and miss affair after reading these posts but the pair we had were very poor in this respect after about a 1000 shots.
Trigger is better than the Tempest but no way can anyone say its as good as the 2 stage unit in the 45. If one did, we would know instantly they were telling porky pies. Tweaked right, the 45 can achieve near match quality barely behind that of the 75 which is match quality.

Having said all this, I hate the look of the 45. Just seems too top heavy and slab sided for my taste.
I much prefer something like the LP53 personally

[negotiator]

Gentlemen of the hw45 appreciation society, you have been brainwashed by the ' Vorsprung durch technic' brigade.

The bsa 240 magnum is...... more compact than the 45, lighter than the 45, MUCH easier to load a pellet than the 45, equaly as well made as the 45, as accurate as the 45, not quiet as powerful as the 45 ( but does that matter), the trigger once fettled is BETTER than the 45, and here is the killer punch.... it's BRITISH....!!!!
These are my findings based on several years ownership of both.
Oh, and the tales of breech seals falling out are ,like the tales of the death of Mark Twain, " greatly exaggerated".
This is of course only one persons opinion.

Pete.

Agree, had both and prefer the build quality of the bsa, as my hw45 went back to weihrauch twice due to
Cocking arms pulling and grinding their way out of the silencer

[clarky]

eh lol
Was not aware the 45 had an onboard silencer. I presume you mean cylinder.
Never heard of this in all my time. A gun tried and tested across 25 years now. I guess you were extremely unlucky

[Rob M]

The BSA240 Magnum is a great air pistol, it's got character and is accurate enought to be enjoyable and satisfying to shoot. The HW45 is also a fine air pistol, it's very accurate, powerful and well-made, however, it's also expensive, ugly, poorly proportioned and is not as powerful as some like to claim.

People are not comparing like for like when comparing the HW45 and the BSA 240 Magnum. The HW45 costed more than 50% again what the 240 magnum did if I remember rightly, so it should be better in some respects. That doesn't detract from the fact that the 240 Magnum is enjoyable and satisfying to shoot and has a character about it that the HW45 lacks, something that makes it, to some people, more desireable to own.

[flatrajectory]

The BSA240 Magnum is a great air pistol, it's got character and is accurate enought to be enjoyable and satisfying to shoot. The HW45 is also a fine air pistol, it's very accurate, powerful and well-made, however, it's also expensive, ugly, poorly proportioned and is not as powerful as some like to claim.

People are not comparing like for like when comparing the HW45 and the BSA 240 Magnum. The HW45 costed more than 50% again what the 240 magnum did if I remember rightly, so it should be better in some respects. That doesn't detract from the fact that the 240 Magnum is enjoyable and satisfying to shoot and has a character about it that the HW45 lacks, something that makes it, to some people, more desireable to own.

Nail on head.

[eyebull]

It was so good, they only stopped making them after, er, a couple of years

How long has the HW45 been in production again?

[clarky]

The BSA240 Magnum is a great air pistol, it's got character and is accurate enought to be enjoyable and satisfying to shoot. The HW45 is also a fine air pistol, it's very accurate, powerful and well-made, however, it's also expensive, ugly, poorly proportioned and is not as powerful as some like to claim.

People are not comparing like for like when comparing the HW45 and the BSA 240 Magnum. The HW45 costed more than 50% again what the 240 magnum did if I remember rightly, so it should be better in some respects. That doesn't detract from the fact that the 240 Magnum is enjoyable and satisfying to shoot and has a character about it that the HW45 lacks, something that makes it, to some people, more desireable to own.

I'm not of the HW45 fan club particularly but got to disagree with this post for the purpose of accurate reporting of items as a useful reference for people.
The potential of all 45s is above 5ftlbs and closer to the top end of this for most. The .177 will usually run into 5.4ftlbs if not gummed up with lubes and the spring in good fettle. The .22 can go 5.7ftlbs but its true that out of the box many are doing barely 5ftlbs, even if this is more than the Magnum but it will run in to a much better potential when comparing the 2.
Looks is a subject thing but I would be inclined to agree with the statements. The 45 is an ugly mug.
However, what I would disagree with is "people are Not comparing like for like."..... We are!
Regardless of the cost, that's what we are doing here. There's been many a cheaper gun out there that has been much better than more expensive versions, and vice versa, while s/h values are now quite similar, with the Magnum being quite scarce.
Finally, the subject of character and satisfying to shoot?...how do we define that?
For me I would tip that choice on its head because the 45 is much more reliable and consistent.

The Magnum is much better looking......but better looking brings support which overlooks the 45 performance....this being 575fps potential with Hobby and 3/4 inch groups.....both out of the reach of the Magnum!

[Rob M]

People are not comparing like for like at all though. Price has to have a bearing in a discussion like this. Would you compare a Gat pistol costing £10 new with an HW45 costing sixteen or eighteen times as much? Of course not. I dispute your power figures too, I have had three HW45s over the years, all in .177, and none of them were doing more than 4.5 ft/lbs, even though they were well lubricated. The power issue is a red herring anyway, I've had a BSA Scorpion that was more powerful than your HW45 figures, and Hy-Score pistols, BSA 240 Magums, numerous Webleys including Tempests a Premier, a Senior, a Mk1 and a nemesis or two, a Gamo pistol, a Record Champion and a Record Jumbo (just over 2 ft/lbs!) all doing less than those figures you quote, yet they were all more fun, more enjoyable and more satisfying to shoot than the HW45. It's enough for me that I find shooting my two BSA 240 magnums a lot more enjoyable and satisfing than shooting the one HW45 that I own. I've had no reliability problems from them at all and even with their shortcomings prefer them to the HW45. It's all down to personal preference.

Time to bow out on this one though, it's becoming a circular argument.

[clarky]

People are not comparing like for like at all though. Price has to have a bearing in a discussion like this. Would you compare a Gat pistol costing £10 new with an HW45 costing sixteen or eighteen times as much? Of course not. I dispute your power figures too, I have had three HW45s over the years, all in .177, and none of them were doing more than 4.5 ft/lbs, even though they were well lubricated. The power issue is a red herring anyway, I've had a BSA Scorpion that was more powerful than your HW45 figures, and Hy-Score pistols, BSA 240 Magums, numerous Webleys including Tempests a Premier, a Senior, a Mk1 and a nemesis or two, a Gamo pistol, a Record Champion and a Record Jumbo (just over 2 ft/lbs!) all doing less than those figures you quote, yet they were all more fun, more enjoyable and more satisfying to shoot than the HW45. It's enough for me that I find shooting my two BSA 240 magnums a lot more enjoyable and satisfing than shooting the one HW45 that I own. I've had no reliability problems from them at all and even with their shortcomings prefer them to the HW45. It's all down to personal preference.

Time to bow out on this one though, it's becoming a circular argument.

Yes they are. The analogy of a Gat is miles from the back field in this argument as you are talking about a plunger powered kids starter gun costing 10 quid when I first had mine.
Of course we are comparing like for like, with virtually identical operating (rearward piston) systems, similar compactness and both well over £100 cost at the time.
This is just the same as the vast amount of direct comparisons (like for like) that have occurred between whole rafts of rifles on this board. These including Supersports versus HW50S/99S etc but these carried out without cost ever being mentioned. Thus I do not accept your point here at all. Especially as you have not even considered inflation costs to the BSA price should have it been around now.
Again, I must add that your 45 must be run dry to realise good performance, thus your "well lubed" 45 was set up wrong. We have had literally dozens of them through the club in both calibers down the years....all hitting the figures I quoted and these confirmed in various publications of Airgunner/world etc....peer reviewed literal works behind my argument... and quite recently too since being added into the new frame finish and chrome detail.

The Scorpion I would agree on, in fact it could stray the legal limit, with many returning 6.3ftlbs with BSA pellets in .22 cal. However, its behaviour was challenging to say the least, not least with some 16 inches of gun out in front of you.
Literally 1000s of pistol shooters would disagree with you regarding the guns you mention being more enjoyable but you are entitled to your opinion but the reliability and potential performance of the 45 can not be in question here....unfair.

[Rob M]

I'm not talking about the price of a BSA 240 Magnum back when they were made versus the price of an HW45 now. Both pistols didn't cost well over £100, the 240 Magnum could be got for £95 (or less if you shopped around) at the end of its production run, when the HW45 was costing a lot more. Price has to have some bearing on performance or quality. In any sport, hobby or profession, people can always spend more to get better kit, you get what you pay for.

Usually when people discuss airguns, it's not a "direct comparison" as you claim. It's more a case of stating the merits or failings of different airguns and then stating a preference, with price taken into account with other factors too, so not often a "direct comparison" with no reference to price. I remember well the barneys that used to go on here years ago, between the Theoben Rapid fans and the BSA Super Ten fans, the upshot usually was "The Rapid should be better, it costs nearly twice as much." Price is a factor.

Regarding power, my point was that power is a red herring in this argument. I've had not one HW45, but three over the years (wheeling and dealing, not because I like them) and they were lubed differently, one on the wet side, the others drier, but all three were doing in the low four ft/lbs range. All three of them. Some fans of the HW45 have claimed it needs to be oiled enough to be dieselling consistently to reach its maximum power. In fact, it doesn't matter if the 45 is more powerful or not though, my point was that power is a red herring in this argument, as I have more powerful pistols and less powerful pistols which I prefer to the HW45. One of my 240 Magnums has been detuned to run at around 3.25 ft/lbs, and I prefer that to the HW45. Have you really chronographed every one of the "dozens" of HW45s that have come through your club? Or do you just take the owner's word for it? Airgunners are notorious for over-estimating the power of their guns. My Uncle, that left me his HW45 in his will, reckoned that on high, the pistol was above 6 ft/lbs, I chronographed it... Nope. As for figures quoted in the mags... I think figures in the mags, like the reviews, tend to be a little on the optimistic side. Why is it "unfair" to question the performance of the HW45? You've spent this thread questioning the performance of the 240 Magnum, what's the difference? The power of the HW45 remains open to question in my opinion, immaterial to this thread though it is.

You might like the HW45 and dislike the BSA 240 Magnum, that's your preference. I've never said that the BSA is the better pistol, just that I prefer it to the HW45 even with its faults. There are as many opinions on airguns as there are airgunners.

[harvey_s]

I'd also suggest that the 3/4" groups is a red herring as well.
The reality is that 99.999% of the population is incapable of holding these kind of groups at 10 or even 6m with a pre-charged pistol let alone a spring one unless rested at which point even a Tempest will get a look in...

Yes, the 45 is easier to shoot more accurately in general terms, but its also a lot bigger, it was a lot more expensive at the time and I sold both my 45's long before I was forced to let go of Magnum.

[Rob M]

It was so good, they only stopped making them after, er, a couple of years

How long has the HW45 been in production again?

That could have been political. It may be that Gamo stopped them BSA producing it so as to make less competition for their own pistols. Car manufacturers that buy out other manufacturers often cancel production of cars that compete with models they are already making.

The fact that it was only made for a few years is meaningless. ABAS only made the ABAS Major for a couple of years, they turned out less than 2,000 of them but they are superb little pistols and very sought after.

[clarky]

That could have been political. It may be that Gamo stopped them BSA producing it so as to make less competition for their own pistols. Car manufacturers that buy out other manufacturers often cancel production of cars that compete with models they are already making.

The fact that it was only made for a few years is meaningless. ABAS only made the ABAS Major for a couple of years, they turned out less than 2,000 of them but they are superb little pistols and very sought after.

Sorry Rob still disagreeing here. I do not wish to sound like a 45 supporter, or someone that is anti British products....far from it if they are any good but I can only accurately report my own findings.
First price. I ran back through my old collection of airgun mags. The last 240 I could find being sold through Uttings guns was £109 with the 45 being offered at £144 on the same page. For me at least, this is a direct enough comparison given the shipping cost and exchange rates for German products. At best guess, some £20 quid between them. Similar materials, similar overlever operation etc. Its close enough!

I have just taken down a 1998 45 which is no longer a smoker but has had no special tuning additions and run the numbers.
Using Hobby, I'm getting 545 fps low and 560 fps high. A 15 fps spread not counting one poor pellet fit at 538 fps (8 shots in all)
I know the 2004 ish model at my club has chronied 565fps, while my original .22 version chronied 422 fps. The recent specimen in Airgunner ran similar.
The very first test in Airgun world ran 424fps for the .22 version. Another version 8 years later in Shooting Sports ran 557fps.
Bowkett mentioned 570 fps for the one he tested.
Its a 5.3ftlb to 5.6ftlb gun for me if NOT the 600fps mentioned in Beeman publications.
The rest of your argument I might accept but a subjective matter of course. Looks and holding in the hand...go on ill agree with you.

For anyone interested I internally modified my Magnum for a little more power and smoothness. Got highs of 522 fps and 4.7ftlbs freeing up the action but never did get past the sudden loss of 50fps which occurred annoyingly after a decent run of good shots. I put it down to a slightly undersize size pellet exasperated by the very short barrel or a leak at the breech seal.

[harvey_s]

First price. I ran back through my old collection of airgun mags. The last 240 I could find being sold through Uttings guns was £109 with the 45 being offered at £144 on the same page. For me at least, this is a direct enough comparison given the shipping cost and exchange rates for German products. At best guess, some £20 quid between them. Similar materials, similar overlever operation etc. Its close enough!

Can't quite see the closeness myself - by your own research you're comparing two items directly, one of which cost a third more at the time.
Its a bit like claiming a new BMW 320i is a direct comparison to a 1.0 Ford Focus - after they're both 4 door cars and the Beemer is just as close price-wise by your maths