BSA Juvenile

[Garvin]

I see that Holts are selling off the unsold lots in their latest auction. There's an Army & Navy marked Improved Model D juvenile model on sale 'buy it now' for £520 including buyer's premium and VAT if anyone's interested? Probably another £25 for postage. (Nothing to do with me).

Description here:

BSA FOR ARMY & NAVY C.S. LTD
A RARE .177 UNDER-LEVER SPRING AIR-RIFLE, MODEL 'IMPROVED MODEL 'D' JUNIOR', serial no. 65692,
circa 1913, with 15 1/2in. barrel, dove-tailed fore-sight, dove-tailed rear-sight with one standing notch and a folding leaf numbered '10' and '20' respectively, the top of barrel signed 'ARMY & NAVY C.S.LD, LONDON', rotary loading tap with patent number stamp on retaining plate, plain air-chamber marked 'THE B.S.A. AIR RIFLE (IMPROVED MODEL D), THE BIRMINGHAM SMALL ARMS CO LTD ENGLAND, SOLE MANUFACTURERS', trigger block with patent number and serial number, 11 1/4in. straight-hand butt-stock (small loss at head), chequered at the wrist, ribbed end to butt (replacement stock-bolt cover), trigger adjustment screw to front of the cast trigger-guard bow, diminutive cocking link (possibly with old repair) and lever stamped with patents and fitted with a side latch, traces of finish throughout in sheltered areas.


http://auctions.holtsauctioneers.com...sults.asp?st=x

[Abasmajor]

Hi Danny,

A nice looking 'Juvenile' which I note was wrongly described in the catalogue as a 'Junior'.

I have a BSA Mod D 'Light Pattern' stamped with the 'Army & Navy' trade name and for a small donation was able to access their archive to establish some detail about its original sale.


Regards

Brian

[shabee]

Hi Danny,

A nice looking 'Juvenile' which I note was wrongly described in the catalogue as a 'Junior'.

I have a BSA Mod D 'Light Pattern' stamped with the 'Army & Navy' trade name and for a small donation was able to access their archive to establish some detail about its original sale.


Regards

Brian

Brian,
Could I respectfully point you in the direction of the 1914 brochure, produced by the bsa press? Page 6 shows the Junior or boys rifle ! There is a copy here: http://www.network54.com/Forum/67044...9+-+Air+rifles
I think it is generally understood by most bsa enthusiasts that the term juvenile was adopted by the guntrade merely to differentiate between the two types but has become the term most used to describe the second pattern junior, but junior still being correct as far as bsa were concerned at the time.
regards
Eric

[Garvin]

Brian,
Could I respectfully point you in the direction of the 1914 brochure, produced by the bsa press? Page 6 shows the Junior or boys rifle ! There is a copy here: http://www.network54.com/Forum/67044...9+-+Air+rifles
I think it is generally understood by most bsa enthusiasts that the term juvenile was adopted by the guntrade merely to differentiate between the two types but has become the term most used to describe the second pattern junior, but junior still being correct as far as bsa were concerned at the time.
regards
Eric

You're quite right of course, Eric.

I suppose Juvenile is just shorthand for 'Second pattern Junior'. It needs a different designation in a sense, because the later Junior was completely different from the first pattern, which was basically a cut-down Light pattern, whereas the 'Juvenile' had a slimmer cylinder and a unique rear sight - although it was actually sightly longer than the first pattern.

[shabee]

Hello Garvin
I guess back then just as today there would be confusion, back then of course it would have caused much hassle to traders and possibly to lost orders, just imagine ordering the second pattern junior (exquisitely more beautiful in my opinion) and receiving a first pattern one by mistake, possibly for Christmas, the mistake being on the part of either bsa or the guntrader in supplying the wrong junior as they were supplied at the same time.
Whilst on the subject, the one for sale would appear to be a little expensive even given what it is, in that condition! The juvenile is not your every day collectors rifle and someone willing to pay THAT much would probably wait for one in better condition, its not like you could find a replacement stock and a professional repair job would put it in the price bracket of a good example, just my thought on it.
Eric

[Josie & John]

Hello Garvin
I guess back then just as today there would be confusion, back then of course it would have caused much hassle to traders and possibly to lost orders, just imagine ordering the second pattern junior (exquisitely more beautiful in my opinion) and receiving a first pattern one by mistake, possibly for Christmas, the mistake being on the part of either bsa or the guntrader in supplying the wrong junior as they were supplied at the same time.
Whilst on the subject, the one for sale would appear to be a little expensive even given what it is, in that condition! The juvenile is not your every day collectors rifle and someone willing to pay THAT much would probably wait for one in better condition, its not like you could find a replacement stock and a professional repair job would put it in the price bracket of a good example, just my thought on it.
Eric

Hi Eric,
A cynic might think the confusion was intentional, given there were undoubtedly a fair amount of "1st Pattern" Juniors around when the "2nd Pattern" was introduced!

The "2nd Pattern" is very much a different rifle to BSA's other models as everything is scaled down but I prefer the earlier version. It is more compact and the ones I have shot perform slightly better. I reckon if BSA had produced a "1st Pattern" Junior with a full sized stock, it would have made an excellent carbine.

Agreed the Holts price is a little dear but how often do these rifles turn up? The A&N markings add interest too.

Kind regards,

John

[shabee]

Hello John,
Agreed, and I think it has been mentioned by John Knibbs in the past that what you say may well have been the case, but I think a gamble also as the ploy if indeed that's what it was could easily have backfired and lost them trade, they were no doubt tough times and who would want old stock sat on the shelves. I am of course looking through childs eyes as well when I say more beautiful, with its perfectly dimunitive proportions fitting a childs hands better, and just like a shrunken version of daddys big number two bore and lets face it, it would indeed have been a lucky child that received one, they never were for the masses. As for the holts one, the Army and Navy markings would not influence me personally either way, there are of course those like yourself who are interested in that sideline, I do think its worth the four hundred pounds in that state but the commission and vat put it out of the bsa enthusiasts ballpark in favour of waiting for a good one, but most likely someone will buy it.
rgds
Eric

[Abasmajor]

Brian,
Could I respectfully point you in the direction of the 1914 brochure, produced by the bsa press? Page 6 shows the Junior or boys rifle ! There is a copy here: http://www.network54.com/Forum/67044...9+-+Air+rifles
I think it is generally understood by most bsa enthusiasts that the term juvenile was adopted by the guntrade merely to differentiate between the two types but has become the term most used to describe the second pattern junior, but junior still being correct as far as bsa were concerned at the time.
regards
Eric

Hello Eric,

I stand corrected. Would you agree that the 1st pattern Junior appears to be seen more rarely than the 2nd pattern (Juvenile)? I have seen quite a few 2nd pattern Juniors, but only one 1st pattern, due I believe to more examples of the 1st pattern being destined for export.

Regards

Brian

[shabee]

Brian
I believe what you say is correct and at least generally is regarded as so, but I also think there Is one other factor in the current rarity of the first junior and in some ways it applies to the number three bore. That is it looks like any other prewar bsa rifle and being a lesser performer would have easily got sidelined in favour of something more accurate or at least something easier to shoot accurately and more powerful and may have forever been overlooked, leading to their demise, whereas the second pattern is quite obviously something different, unmistakeably identifiable in the hands and would I think have been more readily taken care of. Along with the cadet possibly the best quality English childs rifle ever made.
Eric

[Garvin]

Eric I agree it's priced a bit on the high side, although for a dealer price it's not bad, I suppose. If JC Militaria was selling it, it would probably be on at £950!

As John says, they don't come up that often, although I agree they seem come up quite a bit more frequently than the 1st pattern Junior. Personally I also prefer the Juvenile as a collectable, even though it may not shoot as well as its predecessor. It's so dinky, especially when you put it side by side with a Sporting pattern of the same era!

There's also the concern with the 1st pattern that you might be buying a 'cut-down Light'...

My Juvenile is resting comfortably in the reproduction wooden box that Mac Evans was very kind to make me.

[Josie & John]

Hello Eric,
Yes, through a child's eyes the "Juvenile" would probably been even more desirable than the 1st type Junior. It puzzles me as to why BSA put so much effort into making a scaled down version of their air rifle and pleases me at the same time. It is unlikely to have made the company a great deal of money when the cost of unique parts and the numbers sold are taken into consideration.

Don't get me wrong, I have a deep affection for the "Juvenile" and have recently resprung and re washered a pistol gripped version that somehow ended up in my collection after I saw it at a Bisley arms fair. I paid under £500 and the rifle is a nice example. I just need to find the time to test it. Josie has an even nicer straight hand stocked version, which cost £410 a few years ago now. She sold her 10m match rifle to buy the BSA! The best "Juvenile" I have handled has to be Ed's old cased one, which was also fitted with a No21a aperture sight. Now that would have been nice to own and shoot.

John

[Abasmajor]

Brian
I believe what you say is correct and at least generally is regarded as so, but I also think there Is one other factor in the current rarity of the first junior and in some ways it applies to the number three bore. That is it looks like any other prewar bsa rifle and being a lesser performer would have easily got sidelined in favour of something more accurate or at least something easier to shoot accurately and more powerful and may have forever been overlooked, leading to their demise, whereas the second pattern is quite obviously something different, unmistakeably identifiable in the hands and would I think have been more readily taken care of. Along with the cadet possibly the best quality English childs rifle ever made.
Eric

Hello Eric,

I had a choice between a straight hand stock Ist pattern 'Junior' and a 'Juvenile' in similar condition a few years ago. I chose the 'Junior' because of its bayonet cocking lever end which matched those on my 'Light Pattern' and 'Standard' pattern thus making a nice set of the three different sizes. I also preferred the screw adjustable rear sight to the flip up arrangement on the 'Juvenile'. However, I must say I reckon the side latch cocking lever release on the later Mod Ds is the most elegant solution I have ever seen on any underlever rifle old or new,

Regards

Brian

[shabee]

Hello Eric,

I had a choice between a straight hand stock Ist pattern 'Junior' and a 'Juvenile' in similar condition a few years ago. I chose the 'Junior' because of its bayonet cocking lever end which matched those on my 'Light Pattern' and 'Standard' pattern thus making a nice set of the three different sizes. I also preferred the screw adjustable rear sight to the flip up arrangement on the 'Juvenile'. However, I must say I reckon the side latch cocking lever release on the later Mod Ds is the most elegant solution I have ever seen on any underlever rifle old or new,

Regards

Brian

I guess if you had made up your mind that you were only going to buy one of them, purely on rarity you did the right thing, purely based on numbers available here one can assume that another juvenile will appear for you before a junior does, however a bsaphile (and im not sure if this applies to you) would have bought both. As for the preference to the rearsight? well, the flip up of the juvenile is one of its lovable characteristics and you wouldn't buy either for shooting crows!
I have had both, sadly non remain with me but I have had and may still, a fake, bought from photos but aware that something was not right with it.
Eric

[Abasmajor]

I guess if you had made up your mind that you were only going to buy one of them, purely on rarity you did the right thing, purely based on numbers available here one can assume that another juvenile will appear for you before a junior does, however a bsaphile (and im not sure if this applies to you) would have bought both. As for the preference to the rearsight? well, the flip up of the juvenile is one of its lovable characteristics and you wouldn't buy either for shooting crows!
I have had both, sadly non remain with me but I have had and may still, a fake, bought from photos but aware that something was not right with it.
Eric

Hello Eric,

I have a definite love of pre-WW1 BSA Air Rifles, but then a dip in interest on those made between the wars followed by a re-resurgence of interest in early post-war models ie Airsporter and Cadet / Cadet Major.

The main reason for choosing the 'Junior' over the Juvenile was the bayonet cocking lever end to match my Light and Standard pattern Mod Ds.

I would agree that the more diminutive lines of the Juvenile and the more elegant side-latch cocking arm release make it more pleasing to the eye.

I was aware of the possibility of buying a modified Light pattern when I acquired the Junior, but was able to verify some provenance viaa previous sale via Auction before completing the transaction.

Regards

Brian