Why button?

[shrendi]

This is another of my basic questions that will probably seem obvious to everyone else, here goes anyway. Why button? When ever i strip my HW77 there is no disturbance to the moly coating on the piston, this seems to imply no contact. Is this unusual and most guns do have metal to metal contact and so benefit from buttons? I am probably missing something. Thanks

[shrendi]

Please or i will start to feel leprosic.

[ora8i]

On a top rifle there is less reason to button a piston, but it is done to reduce/eliminate the metal/metal contact and make cocking the rifle feel smoother.

That’s all buttoning dose make things feel smother, nothing more. I’ve buttoned a 335 and a B4 and I could feel the difference, the 335 benefited most the B4 improved but needs resurrection more than tuning.

Regards Ora

[shrendi]

Thanks, thats what i thought but you never know there could have been some mystical black art at work. Best to have a good piston fit in the first place and spend money on other areas.

[baz]

Gonna stick my neck out here, I think buttoning a HW77/97 is totally unnecessary they will cock and shoot just as smoothly with careful polish and even more important decent lube

And so will the 80, no need for buttons just polish rearmost inch of piston, finish polish in same direction as travel for supersmooth cocking

Whats even more important is proper fitting springs and guides, and I like metallic rear guides still, unlike Venom who seem to use HW synthetic std rear guides these days, at the price they charge I would expect one of their made to measure metal guides, they did when Ivan was there

Baz

[shrendi]

Thanks, again you have confirmed my long held belief, and yes i would expect a made to measure guide or what are you paying for?

[shrendi]

DIY laza glide seems not to be the better mouse trap.

[loiner1965]

Gonna stick my neck out here, I think buttoning a HW77/97 is totally unnecessary they will cock and shoot just as smoothly with careful polish and even more important decent lube

And so will the 80, no need for buttons just polish rearmost inch of piston, finish polish in same direction as travel for supersmooth cocking

Whats even more important is proper fitting springs and guides, and I like metallic rear guides still, unlike Venom who seem to use HW synthetic std rear guides these days, at the price they charge I would expect one of their made to measure metal guides, they did when Ivan was there

Baz

agree here,,,,no need to button but use delrin spring guide and top hat etc,,,,,i make mine a nice sliding fit and polish the spring ends and use sparingly the grease

[Davestate]

Gonna stick my neck out here, I think buttoning a HW77/97 is totally unnecessary they will cock and shoot just as smoothly with careful polish and even more important decent lube

100% correct.
Its down to basic engineering, and HW seem to have it at 90%. With a tad more attention to QC they would be at 100%.

[Paul Hudson]

As above

I've had both - the one I've kept has no buttoning and it's the smoothest springer I've owned.

As Davestate says, HW have pretty well got it right. And adding the extra 10% gives us something to do with the rifle when we're not shooting it

Paul.

[Tigger C]

I just bought a new HW77, full length version, and after just half a tin of pellets it's cocking and shooting really smoothly. Spit accurate, and pretty quiet for a non-moderated springer.
Chris.

[Euan]

... adding the extra 10% gives us something to do with the rifle when we're not shooting it

Paul.

I think that sums it up,

I buttoned my HW35 and it is really smooth and great to fire, but, is it any better than when I got it back from Venom when they had fitted their stage 1 kit?(It had to go, to get the compression chamber sealed).

Well I'm not sure really, it's far too subjective a test, but like you say Shrendi the moly on the back of the piston was undisturbed after the Venom treatment (not before, there was a big scuff where it rubbed).

That made me think twice about bothering at all (Venom don't offer a Lazaglide for a HW35, and there has to be a reason for that) but I went ahead anyway It felt like admitting defeat that far into the project (spare piston buttoned ready to fit).

The main advantage, I think, is that it now isn't just A great gun, it's MY great gun
Also, and this is quite subjective, I think the piston might be a bit quieter in operation... possibly

On a side note, a while back I asked if Lazaglide is a generic term for any buttoned gun or is it a trademark of Venom? Anyone know?

[bmp01]

Good question raised by Shrendi and good to see responses from knowledgable people on here. I seem to remember reading before that the fit of the piston in the cylinder was pretty good and therefore the need to button the piston was questionable (Loiner1965's post I think...?)

Anyway - I thought buttoning the outside of the cylinder was seen as a good thing as the cylinder fit in the action is not so good?

My understanding - although the cylinder doesn't move much during firing cycle, it does move a bit due to the breech seal getting squashed (due to gas pressure in the cylinder). Given that the transfer port and breech seal is away from the centreline of the cylinder you can imagine the cylinder (and therefore piston,spring etc) all getting twisted.
So I did a quick test - cocked the rifle, put a strip of plastercine on the end face of the cylinder prior to firing. Fired the shot as normal, measured the thickness of the plastercine. 2 things - breech seal compresses significantly and the plastercine was definitely squashed more opposite the transfer port. I'm hesitant to quote numbers due the accuracy of the measurement (although I did use a vernier) and high tech equipment involved (LOL) but I believe the general observation is valid.

So I can see a good reason for buttoning the cylinder OD. Chaps - what are your views / comments on buttoning the cylinder OD?

Thanks,

BMP01

[shrendi]

If the plastecine had not been there the surface would mate evenly and there would be no distortion?

[bmp01]

Shrendi,

Its a fair point but there is no tell tale evidence of the end face of the cylinder touching the inside of the action. I'm sure there would be some wear if it did. Also I would suspect the end face of the cylinder contacting the inside of the action would be an undesirable event - mechanical shock loads, vibration etc. so probably not designed to.

But did the plastercine affect the movement of the cylinder, yes must do - but hopefully only a tiny amount. The line of platercine was only about 1 mm in diameter to start with and it doesn't take much to squash it.

BMP01