Webley Air Pistol Batch Numbers

[Josie & John]

Junior Batch no 1
This is the one troubledshooter mentioned in an earlier post

Thank you Ali D,

Troubledshooter provided me with details of your pistol - I hadn't made reference to you in order to preserve confidentiality.

Were the grips of the coarser extended type or standard Junior versions?

Kind regards,

John

[Ronno6]

Webley Junior 659

[webley ken]

Hi, My Junior batch numbers are as follows


107 Mk2
164
423 extended courser type grips
593 extended courser type grips
780

Its interesting to note that the higher numbers (apart from one) are the earliest guns.

Regards,
Ken

[Garvin]

Senior B'ham 4 batch 730
Premier "D" series batch 121

[Josie & John]

Thank you Ken and Garvin.

[Bruno27]

Webley Junior 871

[Troubledshooter]

I received the following interesting observations from John Atkins, with permission to post them on this thread:



Notes re. Webley Air Pistol �Batch� Numbers

It's always good and interesting to pool, record and share information, but as far as Webley & Scott air pistol 'batch' numbers go, I'm unsure what real practical value a database of them is for dating undated specimens. During his research, Jeff Hyder dated pistols purely on known design changes as noted on helpful blueprints - rather than by batch numbers.

However, the highest numbers recorded do show that during one particular year at least that number of models was produced. But which year? Unless mis-stamped, those in a 'batch' will not all share the same number - or we'd see hundreds all bearing the same numbers. Any duplicate numbers found on pistols will be from other 'batches' made in different years.

'Webman' is quite correct in saying that the number signified the particular pistol within a batch and as each pistol in the batch was assembled, it was given a consecutive number and he sums it up well, by saying that: 'the number isn't actually a batch number, but the number of the gun made within a particular batch'.

In other words, they are actually a 'serial number' within a 'batch'. Any duplicate production numbers encountered on pistols will be from different 'batches' with numbers starting from '1' all over again. For instance, Dr. Mark Newcomer (who wrote three great early articles on Webley Air Pistols in 'Guns Review') owned two Webley 'Seniors' both with the same 'batch' number - but they were not from the same batch of pistols, of course.

It's a real shame that Jeff Hyder's proposed book on Webley air pistols never saw the light of day, because this is explained in his chapters using information supplied by Webley. Talking to Jeff recently about this, he gave Mark 1 a/pistols as an example (up to 1,000 - 2,000 per year). Take the four years 1959/60 and 1961/62, for instance - when around 1,500 Mark 1 a/pistols on average were made per annum with numbers running from 1-1,500 each year for the home market, plus 800 for export - i.e. Total average 2,300 Mark 1's per year over those four years. (It is unknown how the export numbers were numbered in relation to the pistols to be sold in the UK).

Looking at the same years for last batches of post-war Senior model pistols (1959, �60, �61 and �62) Jeff�s records show that about 3,000 pistols per year were manufactured for the home market and about 800 for export. Between January and July, 1963, 1,193 were made for home consumption and 476 for export in those first six months of that year.


Inside Webley, we also seem to have had a 'batch within a batch' situation. Some 20 years back, Jeff informed me that the pistol body, barrel and small components were held as stock in the 'finished' components stores. When the pistol components were required for assembly, they would be requisitioned by an Assembly Foreman and would be placed in a purpose-built tray with ten separate compartments. Ten of these wooden trays would be called a 'batch' and these �batches� would be taken into the Assembly Shop to be hand assembled 'in the white' (bare metal components) by 'Actioners'. These 100 pistols called a �batch� in the works only, are not to be confused with the main batch numbers stamped on the pistols, of which they were just a part.

Once completed and working, they would be stripped down and again be placed in the wooden trays to go to the polishing shop. From there, they would go to the Machine Shop to have the inscriptions and patent numbers rolled lengthwise along the body by a hand-powered tool. After roll marking, the trays containing the pistol components would be taken to the Blacking Shop. They would be all wired up with fine wire for blueing to keep them together. On return, the bodies, barrels and small parts would be thoroughly cleaned of all blacking chemicals and re-assembled. The person who initially assembled these pistols in the white, usually stamped a letter or mark on the body (usually on the butt or above the trigger) to make sure the right tray came back to him for assembly.

Jeff was presented with one of these wooden trays when visiting Webley and I have requested a photograph and dimensions of it, to pass on to anyone interested, when he has time to dig it out.

The Actioners had different marks to identify the pistols they had made up. Long ago, Mr. Pat. G. Whatley of Webley & Scott informed Jeff that the pistols he personally assembled were marked with a centre punch dot. This centre 'pop' was his mark to identify his own assembly work.

This was the procedure according to first-hand sources. I've extracted this info. from Jeff's drafts with his permission. Any revisions or amendments will always be welcome from other past Webley workers and their relatives not already interviewed by Jeff. He and I, hope this account will be of some interest. John Atkins

[Josie & John]

Thank you David (and John),

That makes very interesting reading and I agree it is a shame Jeff Hyder's book never saw the light of day. Particularly if it went into this level of detail around so called Batch numbers.

This is a topic which has never really been covered in any great detail with authority or recourse to factory sources and I am grateful to these two prominent collectors for sharing their extensive knowledge with us.

It was worth posting this thread to see Jeff's comments!

Kind regards,

John

[Abasmajor]

Thank you David (and John),

That makes very interesting reading and I agree it is a shame Jeff Hyder's book never saw the light of day. Particularly if it went into this level of detail around so called Batch numbers.

This is a topic which has never really been covered in any great detail with authority or recourse to factory sources and I am grateful to these two prominent collectors for sharing their extensive knowledge with us.

It was worth posting this thread to see Jeff's comments!

Kind regards,

John

Hello John,

I fully agree with your sentiments relating to the value of information shared by long term collectors for the benefit of those of us with more limited experience. It seems quite odd that details such as the significance of Batch Nos within a large company such as Webley should still be shrouded in so much mystery.

Still, I guess it forms part of the fascination of researching and hopefully adding to the knowledge of future collectors as it becomes available.

Regards

Brian

[dogsbody]

In my possession

Webley Mk1 #326
#394
#1125

3 frames but only one pistol. Got given #1125 but the barrel pivotholes had been very badly drilled out. Acquired #326 & #394 frames on flea bay and substituted #394 frame for #1125 frame.

atb
dogsbody

[Hamish38]

The purpose of this thread is to record as many known post WW2 batch numbers for the Mk1, Senior and Junior air pistols. No need to post pics yet but if two are identified with the same number, then we'll look for further details. We just need to be mindful a pistol may have changed ownership over time and we need to be sure we are not recording the same pistol twice. It is also possible two pistols with the same apparent batch number may be identified, which were made years apart but share the same number. Again, these examples will warrant further study if and when they are encountered.

I'll update the list below periodically as results come in:


Would you care to add yours to the list?

"Senior" - 548 - Alberta, Canada.

[rjk1188]

i got one with 887 on the end

[bobby1]

Hi John, just found this thread as I have had pc trouble and not been on line a lot,,
I have a MK1 and the number on the front end plug that holds the cocking lever is 73 ,
this looks like a match with Troubleshooters ,

[xxlethxx]

Junior
760
Junior mk11
91
Premier
532
Premier mk11
131

All for sale....

[Troubledshooter]

Interesting to find another apparent batch number match.
I'm sure John will update his list when he gets a chance.