Hate to 'stir the semi auto nest' but...

[Jackel]

Yes but as I am trying to hint, unsuccessfully it seems, the relevant section is in fact section 5 of the act.

Don't bother bud,, certain Ex members would argue the sky is pink if they could get a 2 day argument out of it

[Randy Bohannon]

Don't bother bud,, certain Ex members would argue the sky is pink if they could get a 2 day argument out of it

I know mate but it seems to me that Terry, rather than the GTA even, is taking flak because people don't understand the law, how to interpret the law and what to do if one bit of the law seems to contradict some other section.

In the circumstances, you know I'm the first to enjoy harassing Terry for no good reason , what is going on here isn't quite cricket.

[Randy Bohannon]

I'm certain of that too... The problem lies in what influence the trade bodies have in forming that legislation, because lets face it, the past representantion has not ended well for the air gunning public.

AT being a prime example.

Again, is AT enshrined in law?

If not, has the voluntary adoption of AT prevent further legislation being enacted?

If so, has a chance for damaging legislation to be slipped in with a hypothetical "AT bill" thereby been avoided?

[Terry D]

I'm certain of that too... The problem lies in what influence the trade bodies have in forming that legislation, because lets face it, the past representantion has not ended well for the air gunning public.

AT being a prime example.

You want to discuss AT?

Give me a number and we'll do just that.

You won't accept this but it's the truth; the GTA did not go to the Home Office to 'influence' anything. The purpose was clarification.

Now, PM me that number and we can talk.

[18 Wheeler]

AMTA's a trade organisation and are probably quite aware that there's not a legal issue but may have simply taken the view that they would rather not see their members selling semi-autos. Entirely their choice, but not to be confused with any legal position.

Yep. I've had comms with a number of people today in government departments and law enforcement, once I've condensed their wisdom into an easily digested form I'll post again...

...my FEO...His answer was nothing sub 12 is currently covered so nothing in the way of purchase NOW...

Great, we seem to have achieved some sort of agreement.

However, there's a reason why I've not posted that condensed wisdom I promised on May 1st. It was mentionned during those discussions that they were receiving requests to clarify the position with a view to making them illegal. Hence I'm not going to post the legal argument, doing so may provide SA opponents time to lobby against it.

... The bit you need to worry about is making too much noise and attracting the attention of the authorities for the wrong reasons. Simply put, be careful what you wish for.

Depends on who has started lobbying for any clarifications/amendments to be made. As it stood those bodies representing shooters appeared to have achieved a concensus and any amendments would have been to clarify that SA are legal for the small number who were interpreting the wording in a manner which all the legal opinion I've received suggests is incorrect.

Yet, on the 7th of this very month, that very same Home Office worked closely with the GTA to produce this: 'There has been continual confusion over the legal status of self-loading and pump action rifled air weapons. We have discussed this at length with the Home Office in order to ensure that the content of this notice reflects their responses to recent queries on the matter.

There are numerous issues with that communication, I'll confine myself to one.

"in order to ensure that the content of this notice reflects their responses to recent queries"...

There are plenty of e-mails included within this thread that clearly state the HO's recent advice was unchanged from the 1997 position, and this was confirmed to me recently also.
So it clearly doesn't reflect their recent responses. Simply put it is inaccurate.

As worded the GTA statement if taken as law will criminalise tens of thousands of airgunners and the vast majority of retailers will be guilty of selling Sec.5 weapons.

[Tony22b]

Over the years there has been many a discussion here regarding semi-auto. They generally end up with many people demanding the sports governing bodies to clarify the situation... Kind of ironic that when the GTA attempt to do this they get called worse than muck.

Terry
If you personally was on a advisory body to the home office what would your position be on sub 12 ft lb non licenced semi automatic air rifles and can you disclose what the GTA could of advised,

Tony

[evenbad]

Here's the GTA update:
There has been continual confusion over the legal status of self-loading and pump action rifled air weapons. We have discussed this at length with the Home Office in order to ensure that the content of this notice reflects their responses to recent queries on the matter.
The cause for confusion seems to be the Home Office Circular (HOC) 68/97 which some individuals and organisations may have incorrectly interpreted. This circular, which is not a legal document, was intended solely as guidance to police to cover the small number of persons then thought to be in possession of such weapons.
The Firearms Act is clear; under section 5(1)(ab) of the Firearms Act 1968 (as amended), all self-loading or pump-action rifled guns, other than those which are chambered for .22 rim-fire cartridges, are classified as prohibited weapons. There is no exemption for air weapons.
A final point to bear in mind, the penalties for the illegal possession of prohibited weapons can involve mandatory long custodial sentences
I emailed The GTA and asked them would they make public the minutes of the LEGALITY MEETING with HO as their statement refer to individuals and organisations which seem to suggest members of public , here is the Reply.
Thank you for your email.

We confirm the advice released to our Members and have no further comment.

GTA Ltd.the public, Here is their reply.

[Terry D]

Terry
If you personally was on a advisory body to the home office what would your position be on sub 12 ft lb non licenced semi automatic air rifles and can you disclose what the GTA could of advised,

Tony

Tony - I'm in no such position and I never have been, and I really don't expect to be, or want to be.

The GTA didn't 'advise' anything as far as I'm aware. They went to obtain advice, not to give it.

[evenbad]

As you can see curt and they don't want to elaborate at all ,yet make reference to individuals which doesn't make sense if this was posted for their members only unless of course I have read this out of context! I will endeavour to try other avenues to see if I can obtain minutes of THE GTA LEGALITY MEETINGS and will keep you informed

[secretagentmole]

Yes but as I am trying to hint, unsuccessfully it seems, the relevant section is in fact section 5 of the act.

Yes, but that is for Specially Dangerous, ie FAC air rifles. As stated before, sub 12 are outside of the legislation. So that legislation does not apply! As is demonstrated in the CPS guidance. Sub 12 are outside of the legislation. Cannot be clearer than that.

[Randy Bohannon]

Yes, but that is for Specially Dangerous, ie FAC air rifles. As stated before, sub 12 are outside of the legislation. So that legislation does not apply!

You are wrong in every practical sense of the word.

Section one of the 1968 act as amended:

Part I Provisions as to Possession, Handling and Distribution of Weapons and Ammunition; Prevention of Crime and Measures to Protect Public Safety
General restrictions on possession and handling of firearms and ammunition
1 Requirement of firearm certificate.

(1)Subject to any exemption under this Act, it is an offence for a person—

(a)to have in his possession, or to purchase or acquire, a firearm to which this section applies without holding a firearm certificate in force at the time, or otherwise than as authorised by such a certificate;

(b)to have in his possession, or to purchase or acquire, any ammunition to which this section applies without holding a firearm certificate in force at the time, or otherwise than as authorised by such a certificate, or in quantities in excess of those so authorised.

(2)It is an offence for a person to fail to comply with a condition subject to which a firearm certificate is held by him.

(3)This section applies to every firearm except—

[F1(a)a shot gun within the meaning of this Act, that is to say a smooth-bore gun (not being an air gun) which—

(i)has a barrel not less than 24 inches in length and does not have any barrel with a bore exceeding 2 inches in diameter;

(ii)either has no magazine or has a non-detachable magazine incapable of holding more than two cartridges; and

(iii)is not a revolver gun; and]

(b)an air weapon (that is to say, an air rifle, air gun or air pistol [F2which does not fall within section 5(1) and which is] not of a type declared by rules made by the Secretary of State under section 53 of this Act to be specially dangerous).

[F3(3A)A gun which has been adapted to have such a magazine as is mentioned in subsection (3)(a)(ii) above shall not be regarded as falling within that provision unless the magazine bears a mark approved by the Secretary of State for denoting that fact and that mark has been made, and the adaptation has been certified in writing as having been carried out in a manner approved by him, either by one of the two companies mentioned in section 58(1) of this Act or by such other person as may be approved by him for that purpose.]

(4)This section applies to any ammunition for a firearm, except the following articles, namely:—

(a)cartridges containing five or more shot, none of which exceeds ·36 inch in diameter;

(b)ammunition for an air gun, air rifle or air pistol; and

(c)blank cartridges not more than one inch in diameter measured immediately in front of the rim or cannelure of the base of the cartridge.

Section one of the act defines the weapons for which a section one firearm certificate is required, note the word is "Requirement of a firearm certificate", not "Is legal"

Section five of the act defines "Weapons subject to general prohibition.", of which any semi auto that is a .22 rimfire is prohibited, as I pointed out before this why 17 hmr semi autos are prohibited.

Prohibition of certain weapons and control of arms traffic
5 Weapons subject to general prohibition.

(1)A person commits an offence if, without the authority of the Defence Council [F8or the Scottish Ministers (by virtue of provision made under section 63 of the Scotland Act 1998)], he has in his possession, or purchases or acquires, or manufactures, sells or transfers—

[F9(a)any firearm which is so designed or adapted that two or more missiles can be successively discharged without repeated pressure on the trigger;

(ab)any self-loading or pump-action [F10rifled gun] other than one which is chambered for .22 rim-fire cartridges;

[F11(aba)any firearm which either has a barrel less than 30 centimetres in length or is less than 60 centimetres in length overall, other than an air weapon, F12. . . a muzzle-loading gun or a firearm designed as signalling apparatus;]

(ac)any self-loading or pump-action smooth-bore gun which is not [F13an air weapon or] chambered for .22 rim-fire cartridges and either has a barrel less than 24 inches in length or F14. . . is less than 40 inches in length overall;

(ad)any smooth-bore revolver gun other than one which is chambered for 9mm. rim-fire cartridges or [F15a muzzle-loading gun];

(ae)any rocket launcher, or any mortar, for projecting a stabilised missile, other than a launcher or mortar designed for line-throwing or pyrotechnic purposes or as signalling apparatus;]

[F16(af)any air rifle, air gun or air pistol which uses, or is designed or adapted for use with, a self-contained gas cartridge system;]

(b)any weapon of whatever description designed or adapted for the discharge of any noxious liquid, gas or other thing; and

[F17(c)any cartridge with a bullet designed to explode on or immediately before impact, any ammunition containing or designed or adapted to contain any such noxious thing as is mentioned in paragraph (b) above and, if capable of being used with a firearm of any description, any grenade, bomb (or other like missile), or rocket or shell designed to explode as aforesaid.]

[F18(1A)Subject to section 5A of this Act, a person commits an offence if, without the authority of the Secretary of State [F8or the Scottish Ministers (by virtue of provision made under section 63 of the Scotland Act 1998], he has in his possession, or purchases or acquires, or sells or transfers—

(a)any firearm which is disguised as another object;

(b)any rocket or ammunition not falling within paragraph (c) of subsection (1) of this section which consists in or incorporates a missile designed to explode on or immediately before impact and is for military use;

(c)any launcher or other projecting apparatus not falling within paragraph (ae) of that subsection which is designed to be used with any rocket or ammunition falling within paragraph (b) above or with ammunition which would fall within that paragraph but for its being ammunition falling within paragraph (c) of that subsection;

(d)any ammunition for military use which consists in or incorporates a missile designed so that a substance contained in the missile will ignite on or immediately before impact;

(e)any ammunition for military use which consists in or incorporates a missile designed, on account of its having a jacket and hard-core, to penetrate armour plating, armour screening or body armour;

[F19(f)any ammunition which incorporates a missile designed or adapted to expand on impact;]

(g)anything which is designed to be projected as a missile from any weapon and is designed to be, or has been, incorporated in—

(i)any ammunition falling within any of the preceding paragraphs; or

(ii)any ammunition which would fall within any of those paragraphs but for its being specified in subsection (1) of this section.]

(2)The weapons and ammunition specified in [F20subsections (1) and (1A) of this section (including, in the case of ammunition, any missiles falling within subsection (1A)(g) of this section)]are referred to in this Act as “prohibited weapons” and “prohibited ammunition” respectively.

(3)An authority given to a person by the Defence Council [F8 or the Scottish Ministers (by virtue of provision made under section 63 of the Scotland Act 1998]under this section shall be in writing and be subject to conditions specified therein.

(4)The conditions of the authority shall include such as the Defence Council [F8or, where the authority is given by them (by virtue of provision made under section 63 of the Scotland Act 1998], having regard to the circumstances of each particular case, think fit to impose for the purpose of securing that the prohibited weapon or ammunition to which the authority relates will not endanger the public safety or the peace.

(5)It is an offence for a person to whom an authority is given under this section to fail to comply with any condition of the authority.

(6)The Defence Council may at any time, if they think fit, revoke an authority given to a person under this section by notice in writing requiring him to deliver up the authority to such person as may be specified in the notice within twenty-one days from the date of the notice; and it is an offence for him to fail to comply with that requirement.

[F21(7)For the purposes of this section and section 5A of this Act—

(a)any rocket or ammunition which is designed to be capable of being used with a military weapon shall be taken to be for military use;

(b)references to a missile designed so that a substance contained in the missile will ignite on or immediately before impact include references to any missile containing a substance that ignites on exposure to air; and

(c)references to a missile’s expanding on impact include references to its deforming in any predictable manner on or immediately after impact.]

[F22(8)For the purposes of subsection (1)(aba) and (ac) above, any detachable, folding, retractable or other movable butt-stock shall be disregarded in measuring the length of any firearm.

F22(9)Any reference in this section to a muzzle-loading gun is a reference to a gun which is designed to be loaded at the muzzle end of the barrel or chamber with a loose charge and a separate ball (or other missile).]

Now, what makes you think that something that is not caught up by section one of the act, cannot be caught by a subsequent section?


I'm not sure I follow the argument.

[secretagentmole]

Please, when you are trying to quote the law, can you please use the correct terminology?

The terms are "Specially Dangerous" or "Especially Dangerous".

Any gun is suitably dangerous in the right circumstances!

[Punchsteve]

Over the years there has been many a discussion here regarding semi-auto. They generally end up with many people demanding the sports governing bodies to clarify the situation... Kind of ironic that when the GTA attempt to do this they get called worse than muck.

Baffling isn't it?

Yet it seems that if it was any other organisation or individual seeking to clarify the situation, they'd be getting lauded for it.

You could almost be excused for wondering if somewhere, out there, there are a group of very sad, very bored individuals, with maybe a grudge against Terry thrown in for good measure, and absolutely nothing better to do than to perpetuate asinine conspiracy theories about the trade whose fate is directly tied in with that of the perpetuation of the sport.

But then I'm just being silly.

[Tony22b]

Tony - I'm in no such position and I never have been, and I really don't expect to be, or want to be.

The GTA didn't 'advise' anything as far as I'm aware. They went to obtain advice, not to give it.

The responsible shooting airgun community should be involved with any reveiw of legislation that governs the future of our chosen hobby. Real risk assessment of non licensed issues such as barrel length combined with over all length, semi automatics and the phrase capable of .... anti tamper is to be applauded if it protects a owner from the capable of risk if AT is proven to be intact, if GTA are indeed striving for clarification of these grey areas we should be supporting them .......self governing is a better ideal than the other option and it should not be restricted to the industry that could be biased in judgement..

[Logunner]

Again, is AT enshrined in law?

If not, has the voluntary adoption of AT prevent further legislation being enacted?

If so, has a chance for damaging legislation to be slipped in with a hypothetical "AT bill" thereby been avoided?

Not said AT is legislation, I said past representation had not gone well. With AT as an example of the failure of representation.