and they all shout "why buy a gun from europe"

[Patrick 2]

[QUOTE=nimrod177;6730984]This is the bit that falls down. I was recently asked to get a price for a rifle (i will not provide names for commercial reasons) I phoned the supplier and was given the price to me plus vat and in no uncertain terms told that if i retailed it cheaper i would not be supplied with any more air rifles end of..

Sounds like they were operating a cartel, a strictly illegal practice.

[secretagentmole]

Depends where they get their supply from. If they do not normally stock the rifle or sell many then the price will come without a discount from the supplier. They may have to get it from another rfd who then has to put their profit on top. If they didn't do this then they would be selling a gun for what they paid and all the papwer work and time entailed in the process. Then it also depends on their overheads. Rent non-dom's etc how many staff they employ. Really if you think it is that easy to discount a gun then by all means start up an rfd and try for yourself. This is not a dig but for every ten customers that you possibly deal with then maybe only one or two will buy. They must all be dealt with in the same manner even if it is just passing curiosity that has brought them through the door. Please give an example of the rifle you mention and the shops in question. I do not know of many air rifles (quality wise) at £69. You do not know why the retailer is knocking them out at that price and why the other retailer has to sell them at the price he does. The first one may have managed to get hold of bankrupt stock clearance yet the second is buying from the supplier at full price
How do you know he is making a small, medium or larger profit. Is he in a larger catchment area where footfall is greater or smaller. All considerations in retail that have to be taken into account.

Both buy the Hatsan 900 from the same importer! I would say the one selling at £110 gets more airgun buyers through the door on a daily basis, seeing as they are an airgun only shop!

Actually the one I said sells for £110 sells for £130 which is above the RRP stated by the importer!

[Rob Edge]

Which is clearly illegal (Competition Act 1998 Sec2 etc), even accepting such terms equates to collusion in price maintenance.

It's a serious problem in UK retail and widespread, so I'm not criticising you but rather pointing out that many importers/wholesalers are distorting the market, the Edge seems to think it's the buyer's fault.

UK retailers costs are also high, but many also seem stuck to their old business model with in town locations etc. Solware by contrast have a small unit on a small industrial estate and pack it high sell it "cheap", good customer service and pricing mean they do well, although a quick browse of their website will show which uk importers are engaged in restrictive price maintenance.

It's not illegal for a supplier to refuse to supply unless you, the retailer agree to sell at a contract price.

[nimrod177]

Both buy the Hatsan 900 from the same importer! I would say the one selling at £110 gets more airgun buyers through the door on a daily basis, seeing as they are an airgun only shop!

Actually the one I said sells for £110 sells for £130 which is above the RRP stated by the importer!

Do you know for sure that they both buy direct from the importer. Have they told you this or is this an assumption by you that this is the case. "i would say" is your guess from the way you have put this. Getting feet through the door does not equate to actual sales and as i have already stated there may be other factors to take into consideration that you as a customer are not aware of. Rent, rates etc. The rrp is exactly what it says recommended retail price. Recommended being the operative word. Some suppliers can stipulate that the rrp is stuck to and others don't really care. Some shops can choose to adhere to the rrp and some can choose to not. However if those that choose the latter upset the supplier/maker and they then refuse to supply, who then looses out on any prophets. The £90 gun may not be available to shop one and shop 2 now has the monopoly. I would dearly love to walk into tesco's and only pay what they have to pay but then they would have only one shop as they couldn't afford to expand. Or do the other deals they can do.
I have sold at under the rrp and offset the loss of % to get a sale due to the fact that i can return on the sundry goods when bought together. You asked and i assume were turned down on any deal but then don not say how much of a discount you were asking for in the first place or if you were buying other items at the same time.

[look no hands]

It's not illegal for a supplier to refuse to supply unless you, the retailer agree to sell at a contract price.

Then don't agree then if the price is too high, what the supplier doesn't seem to understand is that they are not selling an everyday essential item like food, they are selling a "luxury" item (to a very small niche market) which someone may only buy once in their lifetime or not for many years, fair enough air rifles don't have a sell by date and can sit in storage for years but for how long can they sit on the shelves before the supplier loses out, it's a lot of money to have sitting there doing nothing, it's not a 75p tin of beans.

Pete

[nimrod177]

[QUOTE=Patrick 2;6731147]

This is the bit that falls down. I was recently asked to get a price for a rifle (i will not provide names for commercial reasons) I phoned the supplier and was given the price to me plus vat and in no uncertain terms told that if i retailed it cheaper i would not be supplied with any more air rifles end of..

Sounds like they were operating a cartel, a strictly illegal practice.

Not if they are a sole importer. Which they are.
Cartel
an international syndicate, combine, or trust formed especially to regulate prices and output in some field of business.

Say i sell a spanner and i am the only importer of said spanner and you want the said spanner. I set the price and as sole importer this makes me a cartel No i sell the spanner for what i want to sell it at. It is up to you if you buy it. If you decide to import it as well then set the price lower than me that is up to you. If we get together and sell at a price then we may be judged as not giving the best offer available. A hard one to prove especially if we both buy it at the same price. If one bought it at a lower price and colluded with the other to set a higher price again not good practice but then number two buying at the higher price is going to wonder why number one is getting a better deal. Oh maybe he is buying more so gets a bigger discount. All irrelevant as the company concerned is a sole importer!

[look no hands]

[QUOTE=nimrod177;6731198]

Not if they are a sole importer. Which they are.
Cartel
an international syndicate, combine, or trust formed especially to regulate prices and output in some field of business.

Say i sell a spanner and i am the only importer of said spanner and you want the said spanner. I set the price and as sole importer this makes me a cartel No i sell the spanner for what i want to sell it at. It is up to you if you buy it.

That's why the general public are buying from Europe, like already said how can a gun shop in Europe sell a British made rifle cheaper than we can get it over here where it's made? This sort of problem happened a few years ago with Ford Transit vans the local Hendy Ford dealer in Chandlers Ford about 2 miles up the road from the Factory was selling them dearer than dealers abroad.

If makers over here where selling the rifles straight to the public then you wouldn't mind paying a good price as you knew the money was going straight to them but when the middle man is bumping the price up to far over what the UK public can buy it in Europe then surely something is a miss.

Pete

[nimrod177]

Then don't agree then if the price is too high, what the supplier doesn't seem to understand is that they are not selling an everyday essential item like food, they are selling a "luxury" item which someone may only buy once in their lifetime or not for many years, fair enough air rifles don't have a sell by date and can sit in storage for years but for how long can they sit on the shelves before the supplier loses out, it's a lot of money to have sitting there doing nothing, it's not a 75p tin of beans.

Pete

BSA Challenger Mercury Lightning .25 SFS tuned ~BSA Mercury Challenger Lightning .177 Tinbum tuned~ BSA Mercury S .22 ~ BSA Airsporter S carbine .22 ~ Air Arms Prosport .177 Welsh Willy tuned ~ SMK XS20/95 hybrid .177 CS700 tuned ~Air Arms Combat .22.

But then you only bought one tin of beans didn't you If you thought that the first gun you bought was the best gun and only gun you would ever need then why do you own so many
Suppliers buy of the makers and they have to make a profit as well as the shop or they would be out of business. John Rothery just don't sell air rifles from the likes of air arms they sell a vast array of goods. They still need to employ staff and pay bills the same as the shop. Some people will always want something for nothing, some will expect some to do a sensible deal. As a retailer in a reasonably competitive market and a niche market not on the scale of tesco's etc the gun trade will always be under fire for one thing or another. No pun intended. Pcps cost a lot more than a rimfire to make so the price will be higher. If you want a cheap rifle to shoot bunnies then buy a rimfire second hand as little as £150. Very little to go wrong, no seals tolerances are not as high etc. Warranties on air rifles are claimed at a higher percentage than rimfires/centre fires. The retailer has to cover this as well as everything else. We give a 12 month warranty on all second hand rifles we sell. If it is on a 10yr old rifle who gets to pay for the warranty work then.

[Patrick 2]

[QUOTE=nimrod177;6731198]

Not if they are a sole importer. Which they are.
Cartel
an international syndicate, combine, or trust formed especially to regulate prices and output in some field of business.

Say i sell a spanner and i am the only importer of said spanner and you want the said spanner. I set the price and as sole importer this makes me a cartel No i sell the spanner for what i want to sell it at. It is up to you if you buy it. If you decide to import it as well then set the price lower than me that is up to you. If we get together and sell at a price then we may be judged as not giving the best offer available. A hard one to prove especially if we both buy it at the same price. If one bought it at a lower price and colluded with the other to set a higher price again not good practice but then number two buying at the higher price is going to wonder why number one is getting a better deal. Oh maybe he is buying more so gets a bigger discount. All irrelevant as the company concerned is a sole importer!

If you are a sole distributor/ importer and sell direct to the public you can charge what you like for the product and as you say it's up to the person if they buy it or not but if the distributor/importer/maker sells through the product through other outlets and states that those outlets must sell the product at a price that he/they state otherwise they wont supply them that's price fixing surely which is illegal.

[Fabio]

It's just so nice to use the WWW, make your own choice and spend your hard earned wherever one wishes to. The more competition the better. Brilliant .

[look no hands]

BSA Challenger Mercury Lightning .25 SFS tuned ~BSA Mercury Challenger Lightning .177 Tinbum tuned~ BSA Mercury S .22 ~ BSA Airsporter S carbine .22 ~ Air Arms Prosport .177 Welsh Willy tuned ~ SMK XS20/95 hybrid .177 CS700 tuned ~Air Arms Combat .22.

But then you only bought one tin of beans didn't you If you thought that the first gun you bought was the best gun and only gun you would ever need then why do you own so many
Suppliers buy of the makers and they have to make a profit as well as the shop or they would be out of business. John Rothery just don't sell air rifles from the likes of air arms they sell a vast array of goods. They still need to employ staff and pay bills the same as the shop. Some people will always want something for nothing, some will expect some to do a sensible deal. As a retailer in a reasonably competitive market and a niche market not on the scale of tesco's etc the gun trade will always be under fire for one thing or another. No pun intended. Pcps cost a lot more than a rimfire to make so the price will be higher. If you want a cheap rifle to shoot bunnies then buy a rimfire second hand as little as £150. Very little to go wrong, no seals tolerances are not as high etc. Warranties on air rifles are claimed at a higher percentage than rimfires/centre fires. The retailer has to cover this as well as everything else. We give a 12 month warranty on all second hand rifles we sell. If it is on a 10yr old rifle who gets to pay for the warranty work then.

Because I'm a collector now

Believe me I really do wish I had a decent RFD near me, if I had somewhere like Protek or SFS near me you wouldn't get me out the place, it's more of a disappointment thing for me for not being able to have such a place near me.

Pete

[RobF]

john rothery (air arms) aren't much better with a tx200 costing around £400 trade.

I just bought a new tx200 off the shelf at the NSRA shop for £406.

BAR have them at just under that. So that would be two shops selling them at a loss or close to it?

[RobF]

If you have a decent RFD locally or within a reasonable distance who offers a good standard of service you should support them.All these people who buy their airguns from europe will, I take it, when they want a tin of pellets or some other small less expensive item be buying them from europe too where they bought their gun or will they use their local RFD.I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions.

When I want a tin of pellets i go to the cupboard and pick one out. That's from the tube of pellets that's around 60% cheaper than my local shop, and unlike them, they're delivered.

It doesn't matter if it's the shop or the distributors. The trade as a whole needs to wake up to the internet. It's this tool that allows you to communicate words and pictures from afar, and there's this thing called the post which allows actual physical items to be shipped from afar.

[snock]

When I want a tin of pellets i go to the cupboard and pick one out. That's from the tube of pellets that's around 60% cheaper than my local shop, and unlike them, they're delivered.

It doesn't matter if it's the shop or the distributors. The trade as a whole needs to wake up to the internet. It's this tool that allows you to communicate words and pictures from afar, and there's this thing called the post which allows actual physical items to be shipped from afar.

Totally agree.
The 'Net is here to stay, and the benefits it brings need to sound like an alarm to the outlets that are still firmly-rooted in the Cretaceous period.

Look what happened to Woolworths after they failed to move with the times...

[banksy!]

Totally agree.
The 'Net is here to stay, and the benefits it brings need to sound like an alarm to the outlets that are still firmly-rooted in the Cretaceous period.

Look what happened to Woolworths after they failed to move with the times...

Yep.

I can think of a couple of gun shops that remind me of the Blockbusters episode of South Park