Greener air rifle

[shabee]

Gotcha!
No not one for sale, sorry. I dont personally own one.
Just a couple of queries which someone on here may be able to answer.
For a gun so popular among collectors it is also one of which there is little documented information, indeed i am of the opinion that Greeners themselves have little information. I may be wrong! but if you read that which Greeners have previously supplied to auction houses inc Holts it appears vague to say the least.
On the Greener website it would appear they will, for a fee, supply information on guns they have made, although it does not specifically mention their airguns, and i am wondering if anyone has used this service from them in relation to their airguns?
On another note years ago Geoffrey Boothroyd wrote an article on the greener air rifle quoting that the Cam-back type was produced from 1932 until the 1950s and it is my understanding that the highest serial numbers known are in the upper 800s, making the last ones date after 1939, and therefore they would not qualify to be posted by an RFD? So does anyone have any hard evidence on dates and serial numbers other than that which Dennis Hiller may have written? Or indeed anything else of interest to share?
Eric

[Sam99]

Hello,

I have two Greeners :

Ser No 131 , 0.177 , marked Pat Applied For
Ser No 827 , 0.22 ,

A month or so ago I tried to swop either of them with no reply at all.

When I bought these guns a few years ago , there was a brochure on the internet , I tried to contact the owner for a photocopy of it but I never managed to find out who had the original. I think I got as far as the owner of the brochure being in Australia ???

http://www.flickriver.com/photos/312...7622473876937/


Sam

[shabee]

Hello,

I have two Greeners :

Ser No 131 , 0.177 , marked Pat Applied For
Ser No 827 , 0.22 ,

A month or so ago I tried to swop either of them with no reply at all.

When I bought these guns a few years ago , there was a brochure on the internet , I tried to contact the owner for a photocopy of it but I never managed to find out who had the original. I think I got as far as the owner of the brochure being in Australia ???

http://www.flickriver.com/photos/312...7622473876937/


Sam

Hello Sam,
i remember your advert, just maybe when someone has searched for and found minty versions of what you were asking for and added them to their collections, possibly they were collectors of say webley pistols or bsa rifles and maybe a greener didnt appeal, or then maybe they didnt want to add cash?

Getting back to the Greeners though if we may? You have sn. 131 which i presume is a cam-back? i would expect it to have the roll stamped/impressed makers details, and the serial number goes somewhat against the grain of what Greeners themselves claim. They have quoted approx 600 camback type rifles were produced and yet the serial numbers go into the late 800s which doesnt mathematically add up, does it? if all numbers were used.......
Your other no.827 will have engraved maker details presumably? and this change occurred around 1934 and was a seemingly backwards step, possibly after they moved?
The brochure you show may be the one Geoffrey Boothroyd spoke of as never having clapped eyes on one so they must be uncommon, there is still some mystery surrounding these guns, the numbers made, the pre cam rifles and then that greener patent trigger...
Thanks for sharing.
Eric
Ps i am in no way suggesting anything wrong with your sn 131 by the way, merely pointing out Greeners quoted figures dont readily add up.

[Josie & John]

Hi Eric,

John Atkins has written a fair amount on the Greener air rifle over the years and I tested one a few years ago for Airgun World. Some images of Greeners I have owned are on Garvin's excellent gallery and you may notice there is more than one style of cylinder stamping. I have since snapped a few pics of an early non cam action 'Braendlin' Greener at a recent arms fair, which I'll post a link to below. Note the rearsight is only drift adjustable laterally.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/uy097fv4r...I_AG_fOra?dl=0

The cam back Greener was included in Parker Hale's 1938 catalogue and any made post war were believed to have been assembled from pre war components. I certainly do not know of any post war adverts for the Greener. I also recall colour photocopies of the Greener leaflet mentioned being sold at a Bedford arms fair a few years ago for not a lot.

The plain unchequered stock of the Greener was in the company's style as Greener was believed to have a dislike for chequering - can't think why.

I don't think Greener have much in the way of records for their air rifle - the air rifle reference in The Greener Story by Graham Greener was based on John's writings and duly credited.

The rougher of the two Greeners I pictured once scored 25 x 25 in a bell target match (.177 calibre) and I was silly to sell it in favour of a tidier .22 that is nearly but not quite as accurate.

Kind regards,

John

[shabee]

Thats nice to see john and a first for me, clearly you can see the connection between the pictures you posted and greener air rifles we know of. Ive read bit of JAs work and believe it was he who christened the "camback" if Geoffrey Boothroyds writings are correct.
Interesting you mention Braendlin, where does that come from? i was under the impression the Braendlin Armoury Birmingham was mainly concerned/involved with Belgian arms?
I am indeed aware of the different markings but its unclear why they went from roll impressing (like bsa) pre 1934 to engraving, maybe the tooling was misplaced or damaged in the move, but it would certainly have added time to complete a gun.
None of this still sheds any light on the serial numbers and Greener quoted figures anomaly though or dates when they stopped assembling them.
Interesting none the less, keep it coming.
Eric

[Josie & John]

Thats nice to see john and a first for me, clearly you can see the connection between the pictures you posted and greener air rifles we know of. Ive read bit of JAs work and believe it was he who christened the "camback" if Geoffrey Boothroyds writings are correct.
Interesting you mention Braendlin, where does that come from? i was under the impression the Braendlin Armoury Birmingham was mainly concerned/involved with Belgian arms?
I am indeed aware of the different markings but its unclear why they went from roll impressing (like bsa) pre 1934 to engraving, maybe the tooling was misplaced or damaged in the move, but it would certainly have added time to complete a gun.
None of this still sheds any light on the serial numbers and Greener quoted figures anomaly though or dates when they stopped assembling them.
Interesting none the less, keep it coming.
Eric

Hi Eric,

Without checking JA's work, I seem to recall John mentioning SN 130, which was a 'Braendln' and 131, which was a cam back. I think #130 sold recently and I have a vague recollection that I handled it. The late Bernard Hinchley made the connection with Braendlin, who as you say, imported Belgian arms and John published extracts from Bernard's letter to him in a 1980s article, which detailed the connection.

I suspect Greener air rifles were probably made in batches to keep the workforce busy during slack order periods and there probably seemed little point in maintaining detailed records of what would have been seen as a sideline to the main business of producing quality arms. That's not to say the air rifle was not a quality arm - far from it!

Kind regards,

John

[slug-gun]

I have seen No.3, although the number was stamped only on major parts and not stamped on the breech block as is usual. That was a typical cam back, and was stamped with one of the 4 inscriptions that Greener used on these air rifles.
I have seen several in the 800's but never one with a number in the 900's so I am happy to think that well under 1000 made?

I have also seen another Greener with the serial number 3, no cam back and with the full maker's name and 'St.Mary's Street...' address stamped on the back of the cylinder. A very early pre production I would think?

As ever with small volume air guns there were variations during the course of early production, but in general Greeners have the cam lever, serial number and calibre on the breech block side, inscription to the centre of the cylinder, (either single line or 3 line) and a serial number less than 900.

[shabee]

Thanks John and slug-gun, it makes for interesting reading.
It would make for a landmark if indeed the change to cam-backs was at number 130 - 131 but slug gun says hes seen one numbered 3 which was a camback, causing more confusion.
Personally i cant see the point in serial numbering anything if the maker doesnt keep even the vaguest of records, which i believe must have been done and possibly lost? even if just to know what number you put on the gun you sold last week.
I can fully relate to the sentiments slug gun raises regarding numbers, ive never seen or heard of one in the 900s, but the confusion regarding the early guns being camback or not, appears to manifest itself below number 130 or thereabouts.
Ive probably handled more than a dozen, all were cam backs and there were differences in the cam mechanisms, and i used to shoot with a farmer in my teens who had one in each caliber, lucky sod, he then had a gunsmith fit bakelite butt plates claiming they sat better in the shoulder, must have had too much money because he had numerous shotguns to take game with.
It would be interesting if at some point all the information we know could be collated, but it is unlikely the full facts will ever be known, ive seen enough guns inc Greeners resurrected from parts to know that everything out there is not genuine.
Would it not be interesting if it transpired that the early non cam greeners were imported from Belgium and sold as Greeners, the back block on Greeners inc the one you show above John has the typical Millitia taper. Nothing else British springs to mind with that taper.
Eric

[shabee]

To be more precise, i should have wrote, could the Braendlin airguns on which the greener is most probably based,have been of Belgian manufacture, clearly there are resemblances to the millitia type airguns we see, that being the tapered trigger block, the ball headed trigger adjust screw and the major chamfering of the breech blocks, otherwise previously blending into an octagonal barrel on foreign guns.
I make nothing of the gun saying british manufacture, weve seen similar mis truths from Lincoln Jeffries and others.
eric

[Josie & John]

You raise some interesting points Eric. As there seem to be duplications in serial numbers, perhaps the Braendlin rifles had their own SN range and the cam backs another?

My gut feeling is Greener probably made at least some of the parts as they had been involved with airguns in the past. I.e. the Musketeer, which was fitted with a trigger mechanism that was patented by Harry Greener. Contemporary sources such as The Complete Airgunner from 1907 and period reviews refer to it as the Greener-Lane Pattern and I'm going to stick my neck out here by claiming Greeners made the Musketeer, thereby making them the first makers of a British built airgun.

Kind regards,

John

[shabee]

Yes the musketeer, that slipped my mind, there are similarities between that and the Greener, ive read something of the musketeer in the last few years somewhere.
Maybe that was their first attempt at a locking breech mechanism?
So whos got a Greener with the patent hanging trigger, referred to by My Boothroyd in his article? and fitted to the musketeer...
Eric

[Josie & John]

Yes the musketeer, that slipped my mind, there are similarities between that and the Greener, ive read something of the musketeer in the last few years somewhere.
Maybe that was their first attempt at a locking breech mechanism?
So whos got a Greener with the patent hanging trigger, referred to by My Boothroyd in his article? and fitted to the musketeer...
Eric

Hi Eric,

The illustration of the Greener in my 1938 Parker Hale catalogue includes the 1903 hanging trigger but no such examples are presently known to me. It would be interesting to see if any where made though.

Kind regards,

John