BSA Scorpion or HW 45 ?

[Geezer]

See post 9 above.

By all accounts, the 45 is easier to work on than the Scorpion. And as a current production model, spares and support are more available.

But the Scorp is, as you say, mental, in a good way.

It is not particularly hard to cock, with the Dan Dare cocking aid. Like most things, there is a knack to it.

[JMH123]

You only ever need one 45. Scorpions are like tempests- I want to buy another every time I see one for sale. Have to try very hard not to. Put a slim silencer on the scorpion, a shoulder stock and a red dot- incredible (but not very pistolly any more)

[clarky]

You only ever need one 45. Scorpions are like tempests- I want to buy another every time I see one for sale. Have to try very hard not to. Put a slim silencer on the scorpion, a shoulder stock and a red dot- incredible (but not very pistolly any more)

I kid you not i had that Shadow Carbine....a short stocked version of the actual Scorpion mechanics (not the longer barrelled bucaneer)...back in the late 80s and produced sub 1 inch groups with it at 25 yds.
This is not made up but real....many of you may not remember the gun.
The Bucanneer was actually Cardews favourite gun. Running super smooth he managed insanely small benched groups in a .22 version but mainly used it for a tuning test plank.
Trust me the 45 not in the same ball park....leaping about allover the place ....

[ETCHY]

Cheers all & thanks for the info'. Think i'll be looking about for a nice Scorpion then . It sounds like a cool gun to use & I can cock a Webley & I'm not overly weedy so should be able to cock a Scorp'

Rooti McNote - superb, thanks for that reply it genuinely made me laugh

Dave

[airgunnut]

The hw45 is a fantastic gun if you can handle the recoil, the trigger is better than an all other pistol triggers (other than full on target pistols) the accuracy is very good once you master the kick but please, please, please do not get a pistol in .22, for close range humane dispatch maybe, for hitting tin cans and paper punching at anything over 10m .22 runs out of puff and falls off fast, at my old club there was one man who had scorpion, shooting at 25m he could fire the pistol, put it down then hear the pellet hit the backstop, if I was range officer when he was shooting, I would call make this your last shot and show clear, then check all guns were clear, then say clear to change your targets, I would avoid walking in front of where the chap with the scorpion was shooting from as there was still a chance that the last pellet he fired was still in the air, the angle of hold over he used was more like the angles artillery use

I have a hw45 in .177 and dispite my better judgment I got hold of a .22 barrel as at the time hell of a lot were saying the hw 45 in .22 was amazing, a week later the .177 barrel was put back in and that's where it's stopping! With the .22 barrel it was less powerful the accuracy was abysmal, I gave my 45 in .177 to one so he could have ago (he was a .22 fanatic) after getting every shot inside the 5 ring at 25m (2 handed and aiming at the bottom of the black like proper target shooting) he admitted he could not hit the target at 25m with his 45 in .22. He's since converted to .177

[clarky]

The hw45 is a fantastic gun if you can handle the recoil, the trigger is better than an all other pistol triggers (other than full on target pistols) the accuracy is very good once you master the kick but please, please, please do not get a pistol in .22, for close range humane dispatch maybe, for hitting tin cans and paper punching at anything over 10m .22 runs out of puff and falls off fast, at my old club there was one man who had scorpion, shooting at 25m he could fire the pistol, put it down then hear the pellet hit the backstop, if I was range officer when he was shooting, I would call make this your last shot and show clear, then check all guns were clear, then say clear to change your targets, I would avoid walking in front of where the chap with the scorpion was shooting from as there was still a chance that the last pellet he fired was still in the air, the angle of hold over he used was more like the angles artillery use

I have a hw45 in .177 and dispite my better judgment I got hold of a .22 barrel as at the time hell of a lot were saying the hw 45 in .22 was amazing, a week later the .177 barrel was put back in and that's where it's stopping! With the .22 barrel it was less powerful the accuracy was abysmal, I gave my 45 in .177 to one so he could have ago (he was a .22 fanatic) after getting every shot inside the 5 ring at 25m (2 handed and aiming at the bottom of the black like proper target shooting) he admitted he could not hit the target at 25m with his 45 in .22. He's since converted to .177

Hmm...there is an element to truth to this in the latter part of the post .
Its not so much the .22 per say, which often has a better firing characteristic in most guns, incl many pistols....but the balancing of the HW45 internals that makes this the case with this gun.
The compression ratio/ piston weight against transfer port design is about as bad as it gets.
They went all out power for the American market but oversighted firing behaviour massively.
The .177 will reduce the flow/bounce and try to re-address a balnce with the harmonics to some extent and this is reflected in a marginally better shot cycle.
Whats really needed is chucking out the mainspring guide rod/ piston weight, reducing the power down and arriving at something like the groups i shoot with my LP53....well nearly.
However, power is now down to my tuned Lp53 once you have done this.
ON top of the poor harmonics....which can be tuned out to some extent (opposite end guide rod and no piston weighting) we still have the rear moving piston issue to contend with but it is a bit better.

However, in contrast a Scorpion shoots beautifully in .22 and in contradiction to the jokey aspect of the first part of your post.....the Buccaneer , Shadow carbine derinatives dropped vermin all day long upto 25 yds.
Many shooters used the Bucanner as a close range ratter and even some pest control companies used it.
A first with a plastic stock and the 425 to 450 fps proving quite ideal in roof spaces etc.
We cannot mention Scorpion and vermin control here but same power plant ofcourse.
A stocked Scorpion as mentioned above could shoot tiny groups at 20 odd yards.
Different animal to a 45

[airgunnut]

However, in contrast a Scorpion shoots beautifully in .22 and in contradiction to the jokey aspect of the first part of your post.....the Buccaneer , Shadow carbine derinatives dropped vermin all day long upto 25 yds.
Many shooters used the Bucanner as a close range ratter and even some pest control companies used it.
A first with a plastic stock and the 425 to 450 fps proving quite ideal in roof spaces etc.
We cannot mention Scorpion and vermin control here but same power plant ofcourse.
A stocked Scorpion as mentioned above could shoot tiny groups at 20 odd yards.
Different animal to a 45

I wasn't joking it really happend

[Rickenbacker]

I wasn't joking it really happend

Don't be ridiculous. I did a season of .22 MPL airpistol (6 yards), a couple of years ago.

I'm just waiting for my last few shots to land before I can tot up my scores.

[oling]

Let me have a go.

HW45: better overall build quality, easy to work on, plentiful new spares, 1911 grip frame fits the hand well and takes aftermarket grips, accurate, decent sights and trigger. If you like that kind of thing, easy to disfigure with optics, silencers, and even a wooden shoulder stock. Some have quirky dual power setting (can't myself see the point of that).

Scorpion: OK build quality, bit tricky to take apart and put back together, only old spares though not hard to find, very accurate, weird 70s grip, decent trigger, decent sights until a bit breaks, usually a bit more powerful than the 45 - 5-5.5ft/lbs as against 4.5-5 for the HW (at least the recent 45s I have seen tested). Bit cheaper to buy than a used 45. Early Scorps have no scope grooves, if that matters to you.

Sounds like the 45 is the better all-round bet. Except I have a Scorpion and am very fond of it, and have no great desire to get a 45.

The Scorp is British, iconic, and makes me smile. It shoots really accurately on the rare occasion I get everything right. Whereas the 45 is trying a bit too hard to be a replica cartridge pistol, and not succeeding.

Have you ruled out of consideration the Diana LP5M and LP8?

I think this covers it very nicely. I've never held a Scorpion but if size is no concern it seems to be the logical choice. I can't fault the german engineering of the HW45 (it is truly lovely and such a solid thing in the hand) but I have heard time and time and time again how folks struggle to get it to group at all. Almost all attest to it being an innately accurate gun and that the onus lies with the shooter but surely something is going wrong if a gun is this difficult to shoot well. Simply put, there's nothing fun about an inaccurate gun.

[blooregard]

The HW45 isn't inaccurate, it just requires a light yet consistant hold. Then it will shoot just fine.

[tinbum]

Neither are nimble guns suited to fine target work, but the Scorpion is definately easier to shoot.
Those with livers made of lillies fear the 45, and thats just as well. It makes those of use who can shoot them look even better.

[JCB357]

Never tried a Scorpion so can't comment on it. But I bought a Black Star HW45 in .22 a couple of months ago and get on just fine with it. Nice trigger pull, nice sights (Truglo) and shoots sweet. I do the 6 yard UBC comps and have no trouble at all with 5 shot groups under 10P coin size. Standing, unsupported.

As for recoil, get a consistent grip and NOT too 'firm'. Stance and trigger control important too.

[oling]

The HW45 isn't inaccurate, it just requires a light yet consistant hold. Then it will shoot just fine.

I guess inaccurate is the wrong word. But few seem to be able to get much accuracy out of them and that can be very frustrating.

[clarky]

I guess inaccurate is the wrong word. But few seem to be able to get much accuracy out of them and that can be very frustrating.

The problem is the idea that rearward moving pistons ....like the Webley pistols is a better idea as it should be easier to control the recoil direct into the palm of the hand.....or so that is how it appeared on paper.
Wrong.
Its actually the secondary recoil that is at issue where control is concerned.
Thus your typical HW70, Center, Original 5 etc are more accurate to shoot because they control the secondary rearward recoil better...but the webleys trying to jump forward after the initial rearward recoil has taken place.
With the 45 we merely exaggerate the problem as a more powerful webley direction shooter.

If triggers on these guns were as good as the 45 they would absolutely trounce it.
There is another problem in so much that the 45 set up is great for generating flash over but we can counter this to some extent by not lubing.

[throdgrain]

We sure there's no rose tinted specs going on in this thread? I had a Scorpion back in the day in was very heavy, hard to cock, ugly and I couldn't hit anything with it.

Now I have a 45, its beautifully well made, amazingly accurate and powerful too. Well, the accuracy is up to you, but with some practice my newish one seems great. I used to have a Crossman pump up 1377, that was accurate too, but I never liked it. I do like my 2240 as well, but I hate the power tail off you get with co2