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Thread: Black powder Wesley and Richards 2og single bore with Damascus barrels

  1. #1
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    Black powder Wesley and Richards 2og single bore with Damascus barrels

    I have seen the above for sale by an enthusiast, but have my doubts it's genuine, any info on these and what I should be looking for.

    It is boxed, has powder flasks, oil well, loading rod and cleaning rod, is marked Wesley Richards on the side of the action, and inside the lid.

    Serial number on stock and barrel are 2682

    Info please fellas if you can help on this.
    Last edited by Rabid; 30-05-2017 at 10:48 AM.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rabid View Post
    I have seen the above for sale by an enthusiast, but have my doubts it's genuine, any info on these and what I should be looking for.

    It is boxed, has powder flasks, oil well, loading rod and cleaning rod, is marked Wesley Richards on the side of the action, and inside the lid.

    Serial number on stock and barrel are 2682

    Info please fellas if you can help on this.
    If it's marked WESLEY- Richards then it's a frawk for sure, as the name is WesTley Richards. However, cased guns are rarely fakes. Pictures are needed - lots of them - showing all the proof marks on and under the barrel.

    The Belgians made lots of gun in the latter part of the 19thC and well into the early 20thC that had almost but not quite names - Smeth & Wisson, Horrington and Richardsen, Lancaster and so on.

    As Westley Richards are still in business, you can call them up and ask, giving a proper description of the gun, which, from your description, is a percussion gun and therefore prolly dates from around the late 1830s - 1850s.

    tac

    PS - if its a single barrel, why do you say that it has Damascus barrelS?
    Last edited by tacfoley; 30-05-2017 at 02:33 PM.

  3. #3
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    That was my fat fingers, it clearly did say Westley Richards, I have photos of everything including the case, but it will not give me the option to add on here.

    It was also a typo, single barrel, no plural.

    I did in fact ring Westley Richards today, they have a record of the serial number and it matches what I saw, only it's not a 20g it's a 14g.

    The guy was asking £2500 which sounded a bit heavy.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rabid View Post
    That was my fat fingers, it clearly did say Westley Richards, I have photos of everything including the case, but it will not give me the option to add on here.

    It was also a typo, single barrel, no plural.

    I did in fact ring Westley Richards today, they have a record of the serial number and it matches what I saw, only it's not a 20g it's a 14g.

    The guy was asking £2500 which sounded a bit heavy.
    I agree.

    If it has all the bits, then £1500 is not out of this world, even for such an oddball calibre, although, being a muzzleloader, is not that important.

    In these cases, condition is everything.

    Is it in proof? If not, factor that into the deal - figure on £100 or thereabouts. Is the vendor selling it a a shooter or a wall-hanger? If as a shooter, then HE is responsible for the proof, not you. It is an offence in UK, and any of the other CIP signaturee nations, to sell a shooting gun that is not in proof.

    tac

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacfoley View Post
    I agree.

    If it has all the bits, then £1500 is not out of this world, even for such an oddball calibre, although, being a muzzleloader, is not that important.

    In these cases, condition is everything.

    Is it in proof? If not, factor that into the deal - figure on £100 or thereabouts. Is the vendor selling it a a shooter or a wall-hanger? If as a shooter, then HE is responsible for the proof, not you. It is an offence in UK, and any of the other CIP signaturee nations, to sell a shooting gun that is not in proof.

    tac
    Thanks,

    Condition, it was exceptional, so much so it was the condition that made me doubt its authenticity.

    The stock was obviously old, but in excellent order, age related bruises, but no gouges, holes, big dents, wood missing or anything, all was sound and solid, the action felt tight and solid on the hammer.

    The barrel looked unbelievable, , in the best condition going, not a mark on It, only place any wear could be seen and that was the lock-in lug into the stock, even inside the barrel looked good.

    The powder flasks looked in very good but old condition.

    The loading rod was also in excellent condition, but had age related grubbiness to it like it had been used for 50 yrs.

    The cleaning rod, looked new if I am honest, didn't seem to match the style or from the same wood as everything else, and looked far too clean like it hadn't seen inside a black powder barrel.

    It had a wad cutter, this looked like it had just been machined from a solid lump of stainless.

    The oil well, looked an old style design, but in excellent condition.

    The case was in pretty good condition, it did look like it had been around a hundred years but looked after. bar the front carry strap had come disconnected on one side, the label inside was in good readable condition with the old patina look to it.

    Now my concern is, the stock looked original, the rest looked almost tooo good to be the age it was supposed to be, I know you can make repros look older than they are, the serial numbers were correct, the one on the stock had almost worn away and was legible, but you had to look to read it, the serial on the barrel looked as good as some of the guns on the shelf nowadays, could easily be read from a quick glance at a distance.
    Now I understand these guns were highly prized, and not our average 'knock around' gun in the day, so my guess it would have been well looked after as an expensive purchase back then, but would it still have looked that good.

    It had 3 proof marks on the underside of the barrel, I have no idea what they actually were though, I did photograph everything described above.

    It was been sold as a decorative item, not requiring a licence, is that right ?
    Last edited by Rabid; 30-05-2017 at 06:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rabid View Post
    Thanks,

    Condition, it was exceptional, so much so it was the condition that made me doubt its authenticity.

    The stock was obviously old, but in excellent order, age related bruises, but no gouges, holes, big dents, wood missing or anything, all was sound and solid, the action felt tight and solid on the hammer.

    The barrel looked unbelievable, , in the best condition going, not a mark on It, only place any wear could be seen and that was the lock-in lug into the stock, even inside the barrel looked good.

    The powder flasks looked in very good but old condition.

    The loading rod was also in excellent condition, but had age related grubbiness to it like it had been used for 50 yrs.

    The cleaning rod, looked new if I am honest, didn't seem to match the style or from the same wood as everything else, and looked far too clean like it hadn't seen inside a black powder barrel.

    It had a wad cutter, this looked like it had just been machined from a solid lump of stainless.

    The oil well, looked an old style design, but in excellent condition.

    The case was in pretty good condition, it did look like it had been around a hundred years but looked after. bar the front carry strap had come disconnected on one side, the label inside was in good readable condition with the old patina look to it.

    Now my concern is, the stock looked original, the rest looked almost tooo good to be the age it was supposed to be, I know you can make repros look older than they are, the serial numbers were correct, the one on the stock had almost worn away and was legible, but you had to look to read it, the serial on the barrel looked as good as some of the guns on the shelf nowadays, could easily be read from a quick glance at a distance.
    Now I understand these guns were highly prized, and not our average 'knock around' gun in the day, so my guess it would have been well looked after as an expensive purchase back then, but would it still have looked that good.

    It had 3 proof marks on the underside of the barrel, I have no idea what they actually were though, I did photograph everything described above.

    It was been sold as a decorative item, not requiring a licence, is that right ?
    IF it is being sold as a non-shooter then it is covered by Section 58 of the Firearms Act and anybody over the age of 18 can walk into the store and buy it, providing they are not a criminal person of course, with the intent of cutting it down to use for felonious purposes.

    To my knowledge, nobody has EVER made a replica of single barrel Westley Richards shotgun, especially one that has a traceable serial number like this one. As as for being better than you might imagine, remember that when these guns were new, they cost more than the average working man's annual wages, so they WERE looked after. I get to shoot a W. Scott .450BPE double rifle now and then [thanks, John], made in 1897 - it looks like brand new.

    Can you send me the images of the proof marks, please? Use my PM to get my email address.

    BTW, only one of the flasks is a powder flask, the flexible one is a shot flask, usually marked in ounces - the powder flask will be marked in drams. It is not unusual to find a more recent ram-rod - they were expendable items and frequently broke. The best were/are made of American hickory - very dark and dense. You can check if the wadcutter is stainless - use a magnet on it - if it is, then it won't 'stick'.

    tac

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    Email sent.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rabid View Post
    Email sent.
    Email replied to.

    tac

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