Springers progress

[buttloaves]

I'm wondering how much springers have improved over the years, if you go back 30yrs and look at what the likes of Webley, BSA, Air Arms, Theoben, Venom, Diana, Weirhauch and what they were producing back then how much better are the latest creations in comparison from todays manufacturers offerings. Has there been any breakthrough in technology or understanding in that time. The way i see it a nice springer back in the day would still hold it's own today.

[rabbitwrecker]

The way i see it a nice springer back in the day would still hold it's own today.

It probably would...

[micky2]

Some 100 year old guns will shoot just as good as moden ones will, good old B.S.A underlevers.

[Hsing-ee]

I'm wondering how much springers have improved over the years, if you go back 30yrs and look at what the likes of Webley, BSA, Air Arms, Theoben, Venom, Diana, Weirhauch and what they were producing back then how much better are the latest creations in comparison from todays manufacturers offerings. Has there been any breakthrough in technology or understanding in that time. The way i see it a nice springer back in the day would still hold it's own today.

The old springers - HW80, Feinwerkbau Sport etc are as good as the new ones of the same type. The quality of the pellets has been the main thing in improving accuracy. The sliding breech made popular by the HW77 was really the end of the major development of the springer, any improvements past that are really just tweaks. Modern tuners have a much better grasp of what is going on in a springer, so they can be far easier to shoot than the old school set ups.

I think the TX200 is probably the represents the end of the line for the spring powered rifle in terms of accuracy, the recoilless version was not actually any more accurate, just a tiny bit easier to shoot.

Future developments will have to be on improving lead-free ammunition so that it is as accurate as the lead stuff, and maybe some kind of active recoil damper if people can be bothered to pay for it, which they won't as they can buy PCPs.

The springer is at about the stage that the Mauser rifle got to in the 1930s, about as far as it could go in development. New Mauser rifles are still being made, so its not a bad thing.

[buttloaves]

The old springers - HW80, Feinwerkbau Sport etc are as good as the new ones of the same type. The quality of the pellets has been the main thing in improving accuracy. The sliding breech made popular by the HW77 was really the end of the major development of the springer, any improvements past that are really just tweaks. Modern tuners have a much better grasp of what is going on in a springer, so they can be far easier to shoot than the old school set ups.

I think the TX200 is probably the represents the end of the line for the spring powered rifle in terms of accuracy, the recoilless version was not actually any more accurate, just a tiny bit easier to shoot.

Future developments will have to be on improving lead-free ammunition so that it is as accurate as the lead stuff, and maybe some kind of active recoil damper if people can be bothered to pay for it, which they won't as they can buy PCPs.

The springer is at about the stage that the Mauser rifle got to in the 1930s, about as far as it could go in development. New Mauser rifles are still being made, so its not a bad thing.

I agree. interesting about pellet improvement, means there was nothing wrong with gun design it was let down by the amo, a bit like car engine longevity and oil performance.

[Hsing-ee]

I agree. interesting about pellet improvement, means there was nothing wrong with gun design it was let down by the amo, a bit like car engine longevity and oil performance.

In my youth I desperately tried to get the kind of top accuracy I wanted from recoilling springers, something approaching that of .22 rimfire bolt guns, and ended up using flat-head match pellets - RWS Meisterkulgen and H&N Match. These match pellets were made for 10 meter match rifle buffs and were the only ones that had consistent weight and shapes. These would print good groups up to 25 yards or so but the combination of the low power allowed in the UK and the terrible aerodynamics meant they would not do that well at longer ranges. I have done the experiment with my old BSA Meteor, with old school pellets from the late 70s and early 80s it would group about 2" at 25 yards. With modern pellets it will do well under 1", about 20mm centre to centre. With a Feinwerkbau Sport it was the same, the groups it would shoot at 25 yards today were smaller than the ones it would shoot at 10 yards in the 1980s. I think Crosman (why did a maker of crappy pump ups start making precision pellets?) and H&N led the way with super-consistent round-head pellets. The design changed to a long pellet with a long space between the head and the skirt, and the moulds were far more precisely made. I would love to see a BSA Roller Breech from when they were patented, before WWI, as I think with modern pellets the rifle should be as accurate as a ProSport.... I don't think there are any around though.

[Rickenbacker]

[...]

The springer is at about the stage that the Mauser rifle got to in the 1930s, about as far as it could go in development. New Mauser rifles are still being made, so its not a bad thing.

With respect, Ali - How about weight?

With modern materials, lightweight pistons, lightweight shrouds etc, nobody wants a pellet gun to be as heavy as the '77, '80, or TX, do they?

Except light weight makes them jumpy and flippy. So how about reducing piston bounce?

Put a couple of Formula 1 engineers on the job, and I bet they'd reinvent the whole springer industry in a weekend.

[look no hands]

I think the lack of progress is because a lot of makers don't want to invest enough money into them, the PCP's have taken over and have received the funding but springers have fallen by the wayside, progress has only really happened with springers because of the tuners (pro and shed) with the exceptions of Air Arms and Theoben (ok not technically a springer) over 30 years ago and recently Walther but all they did was to take the best bits of AA and HW and mash them into a rifle that still wasn't perfect BUT give them their due at least they invested and tried.

BSA have just given up because of parent company penny pinching, HW seem to be just sat on their laurels and just seem to offer synthetic stock versions now and who knows what Diana are trying to do, even if they do produce something new, you have trouble trying to get hold of one or even be able to afford one, not sure if it's even worth mentioning the others like Gamo and Hatsan as they just seem to restock their actions every few months and call them something new.

Pete

[robs5230]

springer design has stagnated. The only real research and development now going on is into lightweight skirtless pistons enabling less cocking input and reduced felt recoil, though not by any of the major manufacturers.
Changes over the years with the major manufacturers have only been done to reduce cost, favour the US market or comply with legistlation.

[TonyL]

Love threads like this, but no time to jump in properly.

Will be along laterz......

BOING!!

[Blackrider]

Post #8 just about sums it up for me but I liked Phil's comment concerning weight reduction in future spring Airgun design !

[tinbum]

springer design has stagnated. The only real research and development now going on is into lightweight skirtless pistons enabling less cocking input and reduced felt recoil, though not by any of the major manufacturers.
Changes over the years with the major manufacturers have only been done to reduce cost, favour the US market or comply with legistlation.

Lightweight, skirtless pistons are actually old technology. They always worked well, but the cost and reliability drawbacks meant they were always at a disadvantage.

The future is light to medium weight full bodied pistons.

[vestlenning]

With modern materials, lightweight pistons, lightweight shrouds etc, nobody wants a pellet gun to be as heavy as the '77, '80, or TX, do they?

I don't mind ...

I think that springers in general are where they should be, if you have a craving for something special then get to work.

[TonyL]

The old springers - HW80, Feinwerkbau Sport etc are as good as the new ones of the same type. The quality of the pellets has been the main thing in improving accuracy. The sliding breech made popular by the HW77 was really the end of the major development of the springer, any improvements past that are really just tweaks.

Agree with this, Al.

[TonyL]

With respect, Ali - How about weight?

With modern materials, lightweight pistons, lightweight shrouds etc, nobody wants a pellet gun to be as heavy as the '77, '80, or TX, do they?

Except light weight makes them jumpy and flippy. So how about reducing piston bounce?

Put a couple of Formula 1 engineers on the job, and I bet they'd reinvent the whole springer industry in a weekend.

Mmm, piston bounce. Now there's a thing. This piston bounce / surge has been identified as the major cause of hold sensitivity in our springers. Many would like to reduce it. Some have tried to reduce / remove it altogether with various contraptions, like the Theoben-esque inertia weight and then some devices to halt bounce which have wrecked guns.

Certainly for guns approaching even our power limit, a degree of piston bounce really has to be seen as favourable, as there would be such a fine line between piston bounce and piston crash (or slam). We need sufficient pressure to achieve pellet release and to keep driving the pellet forwards (approx 13 to 16 inches?), so we need sufficient volume and pressure. The air cushion helps to give that softer landing on the second forward stroke.

I think the answer to piston bounce is to not chase the holy grail of banishing it, but by balancing all components which are inter-linked. So, spring force when the gun is cocked and at the end of the first forward stroke, piston weight, transfer port and the all-important pellet. Jim has shown us in his excellent articles how much different pellets can alter the characteristics, so really that fine art of fine-tuning is so pellet related.

I like our springers just as they are, with a good tune making many of them such a delight to shoot. Indeed, many factory ones can be a joy. And a good springer is every bit as accurate as a PCP and with more character, just that bit more challenging to master. But that's all part of the fun.