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Thread: Spring gun revival (again.....)

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by 32:1 View Post
    Ive recently bought a TX and cant put it down, it my return to springers as a bet with some mates about our hft scores. I have not shot a springer for years and in 3 weeks Ive not put it down, my trusty rapid has started to gather dust in the locker

    I do now understand all you springer fans that say "everyone should own a springer".

    I'm having a go with this tx, no I cant hit everthing as well as I do with my rapids, so why is it so much FUN


    Chris
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by clarky View Post
    My Regal has gone ... frankly since major tuning my 34 no difference in accuracy.
    Quote Originally Posted by clarky View Post
    I'm convinced the resurgence is owing to the new tuning technology which completely transforms a springer ... ive out shot a few PCPs without all the paraphernalia ... Springers are getting better post manufacture and our knowledge constantly growing ....sleeveless pistons and exotic materials etc..
    Quote Originally Posted by cooper_dan View Post
    I shoot a lot of HFT now and I'm trying to get more people shooting springers. As part of this I'm going to be reviewing a whole load of springers next year. Testing loads of things including accuracy at 45 yards ... I want to show that springers, even cheaper ones can be accurate if you learn them
    Quote Originally Posted by clarky View Post
    Great ...start with a Diana 34 ...see if you can match my 17 mm effort.....that's 50 yds
    Some folk could come on here and read all these threads about springers and boingers and the biblical resurgence and actually believe that magical things are happening out there, on the competition front, with people shooting springers.

    If this were so then I'd expect to check out the UKAHFT National Series results and see loads more people shooting the required 6 out of 9 shoots to qualify with a springer, and the springer scores be increasing/improving, and the gap getting closer between the top PCP shooters and the top springer shooters of the latest year. Surely that must be the case if all this magical modern day tuning and springer resurgence was as virulent as the springer threads all over the internet suggest?

    Wrong.

    In the HFT Nationals there have been only 3 or 4 that have shot the required 6 shoots to qualify for several years, compared to literally dozens shooting 0.177 PCP. The springer scores have actually deteriorated and the gap between the top PCP shooters and springer shooters widened.

    There is no doubt that shooting a springer is more difficult and more of a challenge than shooting a PCP. So it is more satisfying, from a shooting point of view, when you knock over a difficult target. The greatest majority of shooters want results ... not the satisfaction of hitting targets with something that is far more difficult to shoot accurately in a variety of holds/positions.

    It's really quite pointless testing out Springers Vs PCPs on a range where the shooter can maintain a consistent position and hold. Many many decent springer shooters will be able to shoot fantastic groups up to 45 yards and beyond with their springers. If Clarky can consistently put in 17mm groups at 50 yards with a Diana 34 then he can have my house keys. Group capability is average group ... not best. The test for the Springer Vs PCP, especially re HFT comp shooting, is being able to consistently achieve accuracy whilst changing the rifle angles, body positions, holds. This is where the PCP will win easily. So when you do those 45 yards tests ... do them at various angles, body positions, holds etc. That's when you'll see how accurate a springer can be shot compared to a PCP.

    I would imagine that for those that are at the very peak of the 0.177 PCP competition, there is the thrill of trying to stay at that level and trying to squeeze every point out of a course to try and win that comp or that series. That will only concern a minimum amount of shooters. That will leave a majority of PCP shooters who are of a lower level, that may look for something extra in their Sunday morning shooting rather than another 50/60 scorecard, where they probably found a lot of targets ( on a stillish day ) didn't provide them with a lot of excitement. So they turn to a springer and that now means that far more targets on the course provide more of a challenge, and a thrill when they go down. However ... it's a small number of shooters. Tench turned to 0.22 PCP for a while. Gary has turned to springer. Neil Wakelin has shot very well with a springer over the winter months but I'm sure he will shoot 0.177 PCP in the Summers.

    They are interesting things to shoot. You have to learn to shoot them properly to shoot them well. It is rewarding when you are shooting them well. However, they are Penny Farthings in the world of modern day racing bikes. You can put fancy saddles on them and put some special grease on the chain, but they will still be something that has been superseded regarding ease of use and performance.

    Buy them, shoot them, tune them, customise them and enjoy them ... but it's Cuckoo's nest time to keep trying to say that they are as accurate as a PCP ( all things considered ).

    If you want outlandish statements ... check this out ...

    Modern day 0.177 sub 12FP PCPs have revolutionised airgun shooting. They've meant that pest control is much easier for the average shooter who actually has concerns re quarry welfare and quick dispatch etc. They have also meant that loads of people can just buy one and within a very short period of time can be shooting them accurately. I do reckon they have a lot to answer for in Sunday morning air rifle competition shooting. Shoot a springer at a range and it's fun. There is difficulty shooting at quite close targets. Even a 40mm kill at 35 yards needs some work. A 15mm kill at 25 yards needs a lot of work. Start shooting them kneeling and standing and it's really fun. Compare that to shooting a 0.177 PCP. I'm always talking here about decent rifles with matched pellets that shoot accurately so the work is down to the shooter. Shooting a 0.177 PCP, in a stable position, at the range at targets up to 45 yards can get boring pretty quickly. So to get that 'buzz' out of a PCP you have to start pushing the targets out beyond 45 yards ... maybe even beyond 50 yards. That is what happened in FT. If you want to stay close range ... so max 45 yards ... as in HFT ... then to test the 0.177 PCP, from a stable position, then you have to decrease those kill sizes ... again what has happened in HFT. The problem is that with a 12FP air rifle, any wind is having a dramatic affect on those pellets, especially at some distance. So by extending range, or dramatically reducing kill sizes, you are starting to turn the balance between shooting skill and ability ( hold, release, follow through ) and wind judgement far more towards wind judgement. At a certain level of wind, then it becomes guessing time. So modern day courses, driven by the consistent accuracy of PCPs, start pushing a 'Challenge', for springer shooters, towards 'Unachievable' for some targets. I've done all this before.

    I reckon a situation where people were having to shoot courses with a rifle that they had to 'learn' to shoot accurately, with relaxed kill sizes, would be a far better test of airgunning skill. The Paul James British Recoiling Championships at Anston is such a comp and you will find a lot of people saying that that is the best shoot of the year ( ... and a lot of them will also shoot PCP in other comps ). Maybe a one mile race on Penny Farthings is a better competition than a 25 mile race on modern road bikes? A Penny Farthing Vs modern road bike over 25 miles ... Good luck with that.
    Last edited by bozzer; 19-12-2017 at 09:41 AM.

  3. #33
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    I'm one who has bought a springer for hft, now Im not expecting to beat all the pcp scores, just my buddies this really is just to see how many I can hit. I recently went to my local hft club after a while away and noticed the amount of mechano type pcps there ! I thought hft was a hunting scenario, obviously not and people are chasing their dream with their chequebooks, something that happens so much in motorcycle racing, all trying to be the fastest, the most fun Id say is taking part in the stock or one make classes. Remember Some times people enter events just for the fun !

    Chris
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by 32:1 View Post
    I'm one who has bought a springer for hft, now Im not expecting to beat all the pcp scores, just my buddies this really is just to see how many I can hit. I recently went to my local hft club after a while away and noticed the amount of mechano type pcps there ! I thought hft was a hunting scenario, obviously not and people are chasing their dream with their chequebooks, something that happens so much in motorcycle racing, all trying to be the fastest, the most fun Id say is taking part in the stock or one make classes. Remember Some times people enter events just for the fun !

    Chris
    I think you've hit the nail on the head there Chris. Enjoyment is the key.
    I never have (and never will) take any part in competition shooting of any kind as I have no interest in doing so.
    However for hunting trips, I regularly pick up a springer.
    I don't need a massive scope to pick out which hair on a rabbit's head I'm aiming at, yet keep my freezer well stocked up.
    All my hunting shots are taken from standing positions as my permissions dictate that.
    If I didn't think I could take the shot cleanly then I wouldn't take the shot. That also applies when I take the PCP's out too. I don't take a springer hunting because I want a challenge. I do so as my springers are every bit as capable of dispatching live quarry as my PCP's. Maybe 35 years of using springers has made me very comfortable shooting them though.
    Enjoy your new TX mate.
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    Robs5230

    It would be interesting to know what range you are taking all your standing shots at when hunting.

    I've seen lots of hunters turn up at HFT comps. They usually claim that they take kneeling and standing shots at a certain range. Then when they go around the course they miss kneelers and standers at ranges that are well within their claimed hunting ranges, and the kills on kneeler and stander targets are quite large.

    I'm pretty useful with a springer but my range that I could claim I could hit a certain kill size a very high percentage of the time would be very much closer than most people would claim.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by bozzer View Post
    Robs5230

    It would be interesting to know what range you are taking all your standing shots at when hunting.

    I've seen lots of hunters turn up at HFT comps. They usually claim that they take kneeling and standing shots at a certain range. Then when they go around the course they miss kneelers and standers at ranges that are well within their claimed hunting ranges, and the kills on kneeler and stander targets are quite large.

    I'm pretty useful with a springer but my range that I could claim I could hit a certain kill size a very high percentage of the time would be very much closer than most people would claim.
    The subject of ranges of hunting shots is something I'd rather not respond to, in terms of distance, with the greatest respect. Far too many varied opinions of what is acceptable.
    My chosen calibre for hunting is .177 and all my holdover is physically tested out at a club at marked out distances before I take a shot at any live quarry.
    My shots are taken at various ranges, where shots are presented. I shoot in open fields, mainly bordered by blackthorn hedges. There are few opportunities to use a gate / gate post as a rest and I've never taken a prone or kneeling shot in 35 years.
    The open fields and the amount of land I do have to cover, also eliminate the possibility of sitting and waiting for shots. If I want a sit down I'll do that at home.
    As stated above, if I wasn't confident in my kit and my own ability I wouldn't take the shot.
    I have little ability to concentrate when shooting at paper and never have. I restrict my paper shooting to zero sessions only. I'll usually shoot spinners for 10 minutes or so after zeroing.
    I'll also add to your concerns with the fact that I use a non PA scope on either 4 or 6 mag, dependent on what I'm shooting and where.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barryg View Post
    The one thing that boingers have over puffers is not in dispute is that they are self contained, also if you like nice looking guns the boingers always win (apart from the Spartan) and that as far as I know that is FAC around 20 ft/lbs and there are some FAC boingers that shoot at that power plus easy, anyway why would anyone want to shoot a pellet gun at more than 28/30 ft/lbs just move on to powder, also the more powerful puffers get the more ugly and they get even less self contained with a lower shot count

    If you want hunt and try to be as humane as you can with a airgun I suppose puffers are best, but for airgun fun its a boinger
    Squirrels in a tree, crows and pigeons in trees and shooting them with a rim fire or centerfire

    not all shooting permissions are suitable for rim fire or centerfire .so that's where a FAC airgun comes in handy especially if the user wants to use a .25 airgun . and some permissions are very open so getting closer to the quarry may not be easy so a little more range with an FAC airgun is handy

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    Quote Originally Posted by bighit View Post
    Squirrels in a tree, crows and pigeons in trees and shooting them with a rim fire or centerfire

    not all shooting permissions are suitable for rim fire or centerfire .so that's where a FAC airgun comes in handy especially if the user wants to use a .25 airgun . and some permissions are very open so getting closer to the quarry may not be easy so a little more range with an FAC airgun is handy
    The FAC power thing is something I've thought a lot about over the years. My thinking now is that .177 sub 12 offers enough of a flat trajectory to negate the use of FAC air (for me) as my shots are all taken within ranges that will kill cleanly at sub 12 in .177

    I think if I ever were to go FAC now, it would probably be .17 HMR. Again, I dont need the knockdown power of .22RF
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by 32:1 View Post
    Remember Some times people enter events just for the fun !

    Chris
    Aye ... I've heard that a few hundred times over the years. Usually ... the lower the scores ... the more they were just shooting it for fun. Weird though how those same 'Fun' shooters turn up for the next one with a new gun or scope.

    Robs

    Fair comments matey. I've no concerns over a 4x or 6x fixed mag with no PA. If the shooter has the PA on the scope set at the right range and sticks to ranges between A and B then that's as good a way as any ... particularly with standers where high mag shows loads of wobble.

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    Quote Originally Posted by robs5230 View Post
    The FAC power thing is something I've thought a lot about over the years. My thinking now is that .177 sub 12 offers enough of a flat trajectory to negate the use of FAC air (for me) as my shots are all taken within ranges that will kill cleanly at sub 12 in .177

    I think if I ever were to go FAC now, it would probably be .17 HMR. Again, I dont need the knockdown power of .22RF
    unless you head shot your quarry with .17hmr there will be not much left . The .22lr will leave enough for a giving the rabbits to a friend for their dogs if body shot not sure if the same can be said for the .17hmr .

    plus you cant get subsonic .17hmr ammo. so if your in and around the farm house area with a large amount of rabbits its going to be noisey .

    i use my springer when i'm near the farm house due to safety and the .22lr in the fields . i could not get close enough to the quarry in the fields due to being very open . so the .22lr is fine for that .

    .17hmr would be ideal but the noise is an issue as there is houses either side of my permission. plus i don't fancy the idea of bullets being stuck in the barrel due to squibs rounds ( the issue may still be present although i think they have solved it ).

    i will stick with the .22lr and my springer .

    im out 8 hours average when i go bunny hunting so lugging a dive bottle is a no no . yes i could leave it at the farm house but i dont always go to the farm house due to people working there when i am there ( my brother in law runs a landscaping business from the farm so they are dumping grass cutting and pruned tree branches all the time )
    Last edited by bighit; 19-12-2017 at 01:47 PM.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by bozzer View Post
    Aye ... I've heard that a few hundred times over the years. Usually ... the lower the scores ... the more they were just shooting it for fun. Weird though how those same 'Fun' shooters turn up for the next one with a new gun or scope.

    Robs

    Fair comments matey. I've no concerns over a 4x or 6x fixed mag with no PA. If the shooter has the PA on the scope set at the right range and sticks to ranges between A and B then that's as good a way as any ... particularly with standers where high mag shows loads of wobble.
    We can actually give a perfect example of what Bozzer is talking about there.

    How many have heard of Vermin Hunters TV?....long distance springer hunting shots?

    Now have a look at the scores that Si Pittaway and Davy Thomas get at HFT comps. nuff said.

    Don't get me wrong, one of the best 'natural' shooters i know is an out and out Hunter.

    Maybe we should challenge clarky to prove his shooting skills?
    Chairman Emley Moor F.T.C. 2023 - Misfits champ, HFT extreme champ, NEFTA hunter champ, Midlands Hunter champ, UKAHFT champ.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bighit View Post
    unless you head shot your quarry with .17hmr there will be not much left . The .22lr will leave enough for a giving the rabbits to a friend for their dogs if body shot not sure if the same can be said for the .17hmr .

    plus you cant get subsonic .17hmr ammo. so if you in and around the farm house area with a large amount of rabbits its going to be noisey .
    I'm aware of that and won't be going FAC for those reasons.
    I eat all the rabbits I shoot and I'm happy with .177 sub 12.

    If I were to go .17 it would purely be rabbit control where the extra range may be of benefit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisC View Post
    We can actually give a perfect example of what Bozzer is talking about there.

    How many have heard of Vermin Hunters TV?....long distance springer hunting shots?

    Now have a look at the scores that Si Pittaway and Davy Thomas get at HFT comps. nuff said.

    Don't get me wrong, one of the best 'natural' shooters i know is an out and out Hunter.

    Maybe we should challenge clarky to prove his shooting skills?
    Clarky isn't very far from Nomads, and if he cared to pay us a visit to have a crack at a 30 target HFT course, he'd be made very welcome.

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    Bozzer, I'll write my comment again as you tactically removed the middle line

    I shoot a lot of HFT now and I'm trying to get more people shooting springers. As part of this I'm going to be reviewing a whole load of springers next year. Testing loads of things including accuracy at 45 yards. Starting off with budget guns, and hopefully moving up in price/quality as funds or lending allows.
    I want to show that springers, even cheaper ones can be accurate if you learn them


    I don't want to get lumped in with the 'springers are just as good as PCP's' debate because I never claimed that.

    But lets say a group of people were to come up to me and say 'I fancy a go at HFT, what do I need?'
    If my reply is, 'you need an HFT500, and some charging equipment, and a £250 scope, and a £70 mat, and some special shoes. Call it a £1300 to be safe'. How many people do you think will end up having a go?
    If I said, 'you can start with this springer and scope for £300 and some pellets', I bet a lot more people would try it.

    I started a year ago with a Walther Terrus and £50 scope, and had enough fun to get really into it. If I'd been told it was pointless and I needed to spend a grand first I wouldn't have bothered and would probably still be sat in front of my playstation at the weekends.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisC View Post
    Boingers are just as popular as ever, well except maybe in my regions FT winter league where they seem to be dying out a little.

    One thing that always makes me giggle though.......Springers are tuned so that they'll shoot as close to a PCP as possible??
    Hi Chris ... I have to agree with your final comment but I do so in an amused way. There is, of course, a natural desire in all shooters to get their rifle shooting as sweetly as possible and if you enjoy your shooting there can be a tendency to want to inject cash on 'improving' or modifying your rifle. Sometimes this even extends to changing the rifle. So a shooter gets an 'out of the box' rifle and spends some money on a 'tune' of some sort generated by an itch to improve the feel of the rifle and also the performance. Once this itch has been satisfied, another one develops and another change is made or equipment added; etc etc. All perfectly natural and not peculiar to springers.
    The desire to bring a springer into pcp territory is clearly real but will never be totally achievable without a recoil eliminating mechanism ... no matter what people claim, recoil is always there even in the 'tuned' rifles; it is just that the performance and shooting characteristics have been modified or hidden from the shooter so that the perceived recoil is far less. In this respect, spring bearings, top hat and spring guides, heavy stocks, barrel weights are all routes to achieve this. But the thrill of shooting a springer remains. You can still feel the life pulsing through the stock and action rather than the dead wffp of a pcp. Occasionally I shoot a Park, a truly 'dead' springer than can feel deader than a pcp. It is very pleasant to shoot but you still know it is a springer, both physically and mentally.
    Cheers, Phil

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