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Thread: let's talk about accuracy

  1. #1
    Join Date
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    let's talk about accuracy

    Nowadays on the forums or in those 'expert' gun reviews, when people brag the accuracy of their rifles, they often say something like '5p group at 30 yeards, 50p group at 50 yards' or 'half inch @35 yard' or something along that line.

    For my eyes, those claims make me laugh and I seriously not recommend to buy any of those things as those rifles should be sent back to the factory because they are, effectively, defective at best or show the person behind the trigger incompetent.

    During the past 12 years as air gun hobbist, all of my past and current 4 rilfes, an AA410, a logun S16 Evo, an HW100 and an FX Verminater all did much better when paired with a Leapers 4-16*56 scope.
    It's a norm to have one pellet hole at 35 yeards. Before someone jumped in to say that's not possible, let me emphasis that whenever I get a new gun I alway take time to fine the best pellet for that particular gun. It's like marriage, there are million of million women on this planet but not every one suits you. Same goes to air rifles and pellets.

    The most accurate rifle, to everybody's surprise, to mine as well, is the humble Logun S16Evo. This gun was branded by Tony @ Sand Well Field Sport as totally rubbish and donkey's rilfe despite he sold the gun to me only a few weeks earlier.

    I used to shoot it at the Birmingham indoor range at Hockley (are they stll in business?). Most club memeber there have bigger louder real guns. When the little toy gun came out of the bag, noboday paid attention.
    But when it started to hit constantly the tiny metal wire of the cloth hanger someone put out at the end of the 50 yard range to hang their paper target, curiosty started to rise and everyone started to admire how far the air guns had envolved from the springers.

    the HW100 is another remarkably precision tool, which loves Logun Penetrator. When I acquired this gun I left Birmingham already and had no chance to shoot at metal cloth hander any more. I took it with a few friends on a hunting trip at luckyard farm at Somerset. Friends put out a group of different size spinner at 30, 50 and 70 yards. This gun had no trouble what's so ever hit the tiniest farest spinner.

    Later I got a FX Verminator, in the begining it was like shit with AA Field and most of the pellet I could get hold of. I had some much trouble to have a tight group I almost gave up until one day I found some pellets someone left on the bench @ peter's farm.
    I tried it and the gun instantly started to amaze me. Later I found out the pellets were Webly AccuPell. Once again I could achive same group as my Logon did. I used it for a good months for both targeting and hunting. Although they were excellent for paper punching but there were far many rabbits running away after being shot in the brain than I would tolerate. After talking to someone in the farm I learned it might due to the pellet light weight and he recommended Bislay Magnum. I bought one box and before the first mag was consumped, I know I found another pellet this Verminator loves. having heavy weight pellets the gun had to have a little bit more hold over but once the scope was re-zeored, amzing things happened. I no longer had any runner any more, not for rabbit at least. Occuasonly piegons could fly away but not a single rabbit ran away.

    Now share your story about accuracy and let me know if you think 5p grouping at 30 yards is laugh stock or not?
    Last edited by bobby822; 18-03-2018 at 12:00 PM.

  2. #2
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    In the field or off a bench in still air, 5 , 10 o 20 shot groups. I would expect better of my rifles off a bench in ideal conditions, but for an average shot in the field , bit of breeze, without cherry picking groups, yep not to far off the mark.
    "Shooters, regardless of their preferred quarry, enjoy their sport for its ability to transfer them from their day-to-day life into a world where they can lose themselves for a few hours". B Potts.

  3. #3
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    It is not just the accuracy figures that are lets say rather ' subjectively ' thrown about. A lot of other aspects of airgun reviewing also leaves a lot to be desired. On the other hand any info is better than no info. All I know is that all the major brands will prove accurate enough over the normal sub 12 gun distances.

    A.G

  4. #4
    Murphy is offline Cooee! Chase me you naughty boys!
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    I got lost in your tales of shooting.

    Are you saying a 5p group is good or bad?!
    Master Debater

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobby822 View Post
    Nowadays on the forums or in those 'expert' gun reviews, when people brag the accuracy of their rifles, they often say something like '5p group at 30 yeards, 50p group at 50 yards' or 'half inch @35 yard' or something along that line.

    For my eyes, those claims make me laugh and I seriously not recommend to buy any of those things as those rifles should be sent back to the factory because they are, effectively, defective at best or show the person behind the trigger incompetent.

    What's wrong with someone being happy with a 5p group at 30yrds? - this is a hobby for everyone to enjoy. Not everybody hunts or, wants to become sniper No 1.

    It doesn't make them incompetent.


    During the past 12 years as air gun hobbist, all of my past and current 4 rilfes, an AA410, a logun S16 Evo, an HW100 and an FX Verminater all did much better when paired with a Leapers 4-16*56 scope.
    It's a norm to have one pellet hole at 35 yeards. Before someone jumped in to say that's not possible, let me emphasis that whenever I get a new gun I alway take time to fine the best pellet for that particular gun. It's like marriage, there are million of million women on this planet but not every one suits you. Same goes to air rifles and pellets.

    The most accurate rifle, to everybody's surprise, to mine as well, is the humble Logun S16Evo. This gun was branded by Tony @ Sand Well Field Sport as totally rubbish and donkey's rilfe despite he sold the gun to me only a few weeks earlier.

    I used to shoot it at the Birmingham indoor range at Hockley (are they stll in business?). Most club memeber there have bigger louder real guns. When the little toy gun came out of the bag, noboday paid attention.
    But when it started to hit constantly the tiny metal wire of the cloth hanger someone put out at the end of the 50 yard range to hang their paper target, curiosty started to rise and everyone started to admire how far the air guns had envolved from the springers.

    the HW100 is another remarkably precision tool, which loves Logun Penetrator. When I acquired this gun I left Birmingham already and had no chance to shoot at metal cloth hander any more. I took it with a few friends on a hunting trip at luckyard farm at Somerset. Friends put out a group of different size spinner at 30, 50 and 70 yards. This gun had no trouble what's so ever hit the tiniest farest spinner.

    You didn't hit the tiniest farest spinner every time.

    Later I got a FX Verminator, in the begining it was like shit with AA Field and most of the pellet I could get hold of. I had some much trouble to have a tight group I almost gave up until one day I found some pellets someone left on the bench @ peter's farm.
    I tried it and the gun instantly started to amaze me. Later I found out the pellets were Webly AccuPell. Once again I could achive same group as my Logon did. I used it for a good months for both targeting and hunting. Although they were excellent for paper punching but there were far many rabbits running away after being shot in the brain than I would tolerate. After talking to someone in the farm I learned it might due to the pellet light weight and he recommended Bislay Magnum. I bought one box and before the first mag was consumped, I know I found another pellet this Verminator loves. having heavy weight pellets the gun had to have a little bit more hold over but once the scope was re-zeored, amzing things happened. I no longer had any runner any more, not for rabbit at least. Occuasonly piegons could fly away but not a single rabbit ran away.

    Now share your story about accuracy and let me know if you think 5p grouping at 30 yards is laugh stock or not?

    Not
    Your enthusiasm and passion for the sport are a good thing but, I fear that you could be a bit off-putting for new shooters.

    Tell me, what range do you shoot quarry out to?

    All of the above.

  6. #6
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    To start with you are not actually talking about accuracy here. Group size is a measure of dispersion, not accuracy, and the two are not the same. By definition (not my definition but the internationally agreed definition) accuracy is the distance of the group centre from the aim point, not the group size. The two are defined differently to distinguish between the effects of deterministic errors ( range errors, average wind speed errors, aiming errors etc.) and non deterministic errors (pellet yaw, muzzle velocity error, wind variability etc.), the latter largly determining group size and the former determining accuracy.
    For hunting you need a combination of accuracy and small dispersion to produce precision and a high degree of first round effectiveness. A 5p group of 10 pellets around the aimpoint, fired under all conditions at 30 yards, or any other unknown range, is perfectly acceptable if it can be repeated on three different occasions under different atmospheric conditions.
    Last edited by ballisticboy; 18-03-2018 at 12:56 PM.

  7. #7
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    bobby822, don't beat around the bush, feel free to share some pictures of your trophy cabinet. It must be bursting if you are that good a shot.
    I've seen world champion HFT and FT shooters missing 15mm mini kills. By your standards this makes them incompetent....

    If I can group within a 5p (18mm) at 35 yards I'm fairly happy with that. And most people should be. I think there's very little room in our sport for telling people they are incompetent if they don't meet some ridiculously high standard of shooting

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by ballisticboy View Post
    if it can be repeated on three different occasions under different atmospheric conditions.

    nice Ballistic's Boy, very nice

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by lensman57 View Post
    It is not just the accuracy figures that are lets say rather ' subjectively ' thrown about. A lot of other aspects of airgun reviewing also leaves a lot to be desired.
    As ever, all constructive suggestions gratefully received.
    If you don't know enough to judge - don't judge

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobby822 View Post
    Nowadays on the forums or in those 'expert' gun reviews, when people brag the accuracy of their rifles, they often say something like '5p group at 30 yeards, 50p group at 50 yards' or 'half inch @35 yard' or something along that line.

    For my eyes, those claims make me laugh and I seriously not recommend to buy any of those things as those rifles should be sent back to the factory because they are, effectively, defective at best or show the person behind the trigger incompetent.
    Well, that's most of us told, then!

    I've obviously been merely playing at this sport of ours over the years, because a 5p-size group at 30 yards is perfectly acceptable to me, especially on an outdoor range. I've produced many of the famed 'single-holers' at ranges up to 55 yards over the years, but many things must come together for this to happen.

    Bobby, if you really can hit tiny spinners at 70 yards with any degree of regularity under hunting conditions, I'd genuinely like to do a feature on you and your techniques. If you PM me on here, we can get something organised.

    Regards.
    If you don't know enough to judge - don't judge

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobby822 View Post
    Nowadays on the forums or in those 'expert' gun reviews, when people brag the accuracy of their rifles, they often say something like '5p group at 30 yeards, 50p group at 50 yards' or 'half inch @35 yard' or something along that line.

    For my eyes, those claims make me laugh and I seriously not recommend to buy any of those things as those rifles should be sent back to the factory because they are, effectively, defective at best or show the person behind the trigger incompetent.

    During the past 12 years as air gun hobbist, all of my past and current 4 rilfes, an AA410, a logun S16 Evo, an HW100 and an FX Verminater all did much better when paired with a Leapers 4-16*56 scope.
    It's a norm to have one pellet hole at 35 yeards. Before someone jumped in to say that's not possible, let me emphasis that whenever I get a new gun I alway take time to fine the best pellet for that particular gun. It's like marriage, there are million of million women on this planet but not every one suits you. Same goes to air rifles and pellets.

    The most accurate rifle, to everybody's surprise, to mine as well, is the humble Logun S16Evo. This gun was branded by Tony @ Sand Well Field Sport as totally rubbish and donkey's rilfe despite he sold the gun to me only a few weeks earlier.

    I used to shoot it at the Birmingham indoor range at Hockley (are they stll in business?). Most club memeber there have bigger louder real guns. When the little toy gun came out of the bag, noboday paid attention.
    But when it started to hit constantly the tiny metal wire of the cloth hanger someone put out at the end of the 50 yard range to hang their paper target, curiosty started to rise and everyone started to admire how far the air guns had envolved from the springers.

    the HW100 is another remarkably precision tool, which loves Logun Penetrator. When I acquired this gun I left Birmingham already and had no chance to shoot at metal cloth hander any more. I took it with a few friends on a hunting trip at luckyard farm at Somerset. Friends put out a group of different size spinner at 30, 50 and 70 yards. This gun had no trouble what's so ever hit the tiniest farest spinner.

    Later I got a FX Verminator, in the begining it was like shit with AA Field and most of the pellet I could get hold of. I had some much trouble to have a tight group I almost gave up until one day I found some pellets someone left on the bench @ peter's farm.
    I tried it and the gun instantly started to amaze me. Later I found out the pellets were Webly AccuPell. Once again I could achive same group as my Logon did. I used it for a good months for both targeting and hunting. Although they were excellent for paper punching but there were far many rabbits running away after being shot in the brain than I would tolerate. After talking to someone in the farm I learned it might due to the pellet light weight and he recommended Bislay Magnum. I bought one box and before the first mag was consumped, I know I found another pellet this Verminator loves. having heavy weight pellets the gun had to have a little bit more hold over but once the scope was re-zeored, amzing things happened. I no longer had any runner any more, not for rabbit at least. Occuasonly piegons could fly away but not a single rabbit ran away.

    Now share your story about accuracy and let me know if you think 5p grouping at 30 yards is laugh stock or not?
    OK, how do you shoot ? bag rested, off a bipod, bench rest support or free hand ?
    How many shots are your one pellet holes and what sort of time frame for these (frankly barely believable) exploits ?

    My Rapid .25 happily shoots ragged single holes 12-15mm at it's 42yd zero, by which I mean (for zeroing) supported on a front bag or bipod,
    at my normal shooting speed taking a minute to a minute & half for the mag of 12 shots, 1-2 breaths between shots.

  12. #12
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    I'm clearly rubbish then!

    A good day for me is not getting any wee on the toilet seat. I have to focus on my breathing though.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by bighit View Post
    I would not hold your breath waiting Terry as most of these airgun Chris Kyle's never come up with the proof . They tend to go quiet then pop up when they think people have forgotten these threads.
    I guess time will tell, but I am genuinely always willing to learn from those who can do what I can't.

    On a broader level, I've made similar invitations to those who claim to hunt at extreme ranges with sub-12 rifles. I've also had strong criticism, along the lines of, 'just because you can't do it, it doesn't mean I can't', when I've stated that my personal hunting range limit is 45 yards, and then ONLY under perfect conditions. For 'perfect', read not a breath of wind, rested rifle, range known to the inch and me on top form. In most of my hunting, 35 yards is the max, and even that will drop as the wind rises or becomes less predictable. To date, no one has accepted my invitation to show me how they reliably take rabbits, pigeons and corvids at 50, 60, 70 yards, and even beyond. The key term, here, is 'reliably'. I'm not talking about some irresponsible fluke you paced out, once. This is about repeatable accuracy, first time, under hunting conditions.

    That offer stands and it's open to anyone, with rangefinders and any stance permitted. As stated, this is a genuine offer, with no 'side' or hidden agenda. If you can do it, I'd love to see how.

    Regards.
    If you don't know enough to judge - don't judge

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRS1 View Post
    I'm clearly rubbish then!

    A good day for me is not getting any wee on the toilet seat. I have to focus on my breathing though.
    I laughed at this and had a little wee myself 🤣😂🤣

  15. #15
    Hsing-ee's Avatar
    Hsing-ee is offline may also be employed in conjunction with a drawn reciprocation dingle arm, to reduce sinusoidal repleneration
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobby822 View Post
    Nowadays on the forums or in those 'expert' gun reviews, when people brag the accuracy of their rifles, they often say something like '5p group at 30 yeards, 50p group at 50 yards' or 'half inch @35 yard' or something along that line.

    For my eyes, those claims make me laugh and I seriously not recommend to buy any of those things as those rifles should be sent back to the factory because they are, effectively, defective at best or show the person behind the trigger incompetent. Most club memeber there have bigger louder real guns. When the little toy gun came out of the bag, noboday paid attention.
    But when it started to hit constantly the tiny metal wire of the cloth hanger someone put out at the end of the 50 yard range to hang their paper target, curiosty started to rise and everyone started to admire how far the air guns had envolved from the springers.

    the HW100 is another remarkably precision tool, which loves Logun Penetrator.

    Now share your story about accuracy and let me know if you think 5p grouping at 30 yards is laugh stock or not?
    Bigger. Louder. Real. Nonsense.

    I think the only thing you are hitting consistently is the ANNOYING TROLL button. The grammatical mistakes and spelling mistakes are even the same as those that the political trolls use.

    No-one with any claim to being a rifleman will believe your stories of groups with zero dispersion, partly through experience and partly because if the bench-rest brigade cannot achieve them, then some geezer with a Weihrauch HW100 and an arrogant attitude is not going to be able to.

    You have succeeded in your mission, which presumably was to get everyone worked up at your 'Baron Munchausen's Narrative of Marvellous Accuracy and Marksmanship'. Congratulations.
    Last edited by Hsing-ee; 18-03-2018 at 03:39 PM.

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