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Thread: Starting from scratch...

  1. #16
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    Bullet COL

    Just make up a dummy round for each variety of bullet...ensure it chambers...set the seating die to the dummy round...simple.

    amc577

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris J View Post
    Thanks for all the info guys, very much appreciated.
    I've just placed my order with Sportsman guncenter as they had some great deals on.
    RCBS Rockchuker supreme master kit, RCBS X - full length dies, and shell holder.
    Let's hope it really is "buy once, cry once" eh!
    Add some Redding Imperial sizing case wax lube too.
    "Shooters, regardless of their preferred quarry, enjoy their sport for its ability to transfer them from their day-to-day life into a world where they can lose themselves for a few hours". B Potts.

  3. #18
    Parabuteo is offline My Chrony has bought it a couple of times...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Bohannon View Post
    Exactly, the crimp has caused the neck and/or shoulders to swell to the point where the cartridge would not chamber.

    That has nothing to do with the cartridge overall length.

    You can crimp H&N plated bullets, and all other lead cored bullets with or without a crimp groove, with the Lee factory crimp die which works differently to the roll crimp in some seater dies but can still cause bulged shoulders if badly adjusted.
    I would also add to this that IF as a beginner you get given once fired brass, make sure that you FL the lot before you start. I have been lucky enough to have a supply of brass and nickle plated brass .308 fed cases, all of which have been fired through well maintained AI rifles.

    The difference between the fired cases in terms of required re-sizing is interesting, quite a mix. Dont forget also that shoulder head spacing is more often than not going to prevent chambering as well. I would always suggest the dummy round being loaded to the correct SAAMI spec (this includes FL sizing new brass, you would be surprised) and checking to see if you have any rifling marks on the bullet. The Ogive will vary with bullet design. You dont want to be engaging the landes initially with a first attempt.

    As stated there is no need for a cenelure for the Lee crimp to do its job, however I do tend to make sure the lot coincides if I do use bullets with canelures, although this tends only to be with .303 . Roll crimps can be a sod if you get them wrong, personally if you feel the need to crimp (I do all mine) then the Lee is the better option.
    I'm a maggot in another life you know

  4. #19
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    Have a chat to the guys at the club, they are a mine of information.....
    Thanks for looking

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by stillair1 View Post
    Add some Redding Imperial sizing case wax lube too.
    And this, though the hornady is just as good
    Thanks for looking

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by sundog View Post
    Surely COAL is to standard spec and any rifle chambered for that particular cartridge should be able to be loaded with a cartridge to that spec. It sounds like that rifle was custom made and chambered to be shot with a specific bullet in which case the chap should have been given a 'dummy' chamber to check that his coal was ok or indeed checked in the rifles chamber. He could also have reseated the bullets a bit deeper rather than pull them.

    My one fingered typing style is so slow Mr Bohannon replied,had dinner,a large cigar and brandy and forty winks before I posted this
    No, as said above it will depend on bullet profile, in my creedmoor a 139 gr Lapa scenar can be loaded at saami length and it's 10 thou off the ands, with a 140 gr S&B loaded at 2.825 the bullet jams into the lands and pressure spikes.

    Checking before you load up a bunch is a very good idea.....
    Thanks for looking

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Bohannon View Post
    Good advice so far, I would only add that your budget is reasonable and so it pays in your case to buy a few quality items to begin with and add to it as experience and time allows.

    On that basis I would take as a starting point what actually needs to be done to reload a cartridge.

    The stages of reloading a case are the following:


    1. deprime case
    2. clean case (optional)
    3. resize case or case neck
    4. trim case
    5. reprime case
    6. charge case with powder
    7. seat bullet
    8. crimp bullet (optional)


    For example, I started with a Lee hand press and loaded many rounds with it.

    I broke it trying to FL size 2006 brass and so got a RCBS rockchucker which will probably be passed onto my grandchildren one day. I did buy another Lee hand press but for different reasons ( loading on the range) but had I bought the RCBS in the first place it would have been a case of buy once cry once.

    My advice is therefore to first buy a good single stage, cast press such as the Lee classic cast for around £150 to the RCBS rockchucker supreme at around £200 with the Hornady and Lyman offerings falling in between in terms of cost. I personally prefer RCBS but there is no real difference in quality between these brands, see what your local gun shop has or find the best offer on line. These presses all allow for depriming as well as repriming on the press using little attachments and whilst this method is a little slower than a dedicated hand priming unit works very well and is perfectly adequate for the beginner; With a £15 Lee universal decapping die and £5 calibre specific shell holder bought at the same time the press therefore takes care of 1. (and 5.)

    That leaves around £280-330 left of your budget and the empty cartridge case has been deprimed and is ready for sizing.

    A word on cleaning, it is not necessary to get the inside and out of your case spotless but for the sake of your reloading dies cleaning the outside of the case will prevent scratches on the precision surface in the die and cleaning the primer pockets will give you consistency in primer seating depth. This can be done without fancy equipment, a bit of 0000 wire wool on the outside of the case and gentle scrape with a small screwdriver in the primer pocket will do the job; save the money here until you have the more important bits in my opinion.

    To do this you need a set of dies, at a minimum a Full Length sizing die and a bullet seating die. It is nice to have a neck sizing die and a crimping die also but not to get started and these can be added on later when funds and experience allow.

    Dies sets range from £40 for Lee 3 die sets to over £200 for Forster competition sets but luckily the differences are not very relevant for the beginner and the Lee deluxe set is the one to go for in your shoes. You also need some case lube to stop the cases getting stuck in the dies and I would recommend Imperial die case sizing wax as the best of the best at £5 for a small tin which will last for years.

    This brings the budget to £235-285 and you have have a deprimed and sized case for your troubles.

    You need to trim your cases now, particularity if you have been following everyone's advice and FL sizing. Trimming promotes consistency and not trimming can result in severe overpressure problems.

    The cheapest and easiest way to trim cases is with the Lee trimming kits you use an electric screwdriver for being the "Lee Precision Case Trimmer Cutter & Lock Stud" and the calibre specific "Case Length Gauge & Shell Holder" for your .223 at around £15 total.

    The good thing about these items are they are cheap, consistent and you don't need to measure the case every time as it trims them all to the same length.

    Clean the lube off the case and from he inside of the neck with kitchen towels, cotton buds and meths and reprime using the press.

    Your budget is now £220-260 and you have a case that is the equivalent of a new, unfired case ready for charging, seating a bullet on and firing.

    As everyone has said, you need good, repeatable scales to charge your cases. I recommend some dampened balance beam scales such as the RCBS 5xx series, with the 505 being about the best for the money. Avoid the Lee scales as being undampened they take ages to settle. These will set you back around £100 and you have a case ready for seating the bullet and a budget of £120-£160 left. Parabueto explained why avoiding cheap electronic scales is a good idea.

    The dies and press do the work of seating the bullet but you will need a a decent set of vernier calipers to measure the overall length of the rounds you are producing and to keep that measurement the same between reloading sessions. These are can be had from about £25 quid up and I would get one that reads in Imperial units if dedicated to reloading.

    At this stage and with around a hundred quid left of your budget you have produced a round of ammunition that is much more consistent than factory ammunition and done it with quality kit that you will never need to sell to "upgrade", you simply add more kit to it as funds and experience allow.
    Spend the last on one of these to turn your beam scale into a precision trickler that will measure a grain (physical not in weight) at a time if needed.

    http://www.targetmasteruk.com/

    Coupled with a cheap lee thrower throwing .2-.3 gr light into the pan and you will save a lot of hassle, time and get you'll get very consistent powder charges.
    Thanks for looking

  8. #23
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    The kit arrived today. No doubt I’ll be picking your brains on Sunday about how to get the best out of it
    To be honest I’ve felt slightly overwhelmed by it all, but once I’ve started using it I’m sure my confidence will grow. I’ve asked my brother to give me a hand setting it all up as he’s an engineer and is use to working with strick tolerances. I tried the HPS 69g ammo last week at 200 yards on short Siberia and got some decent results. Comfortably shooting 1.5-2inch groups at that range. A few groups had 4 shots within a 1”, just my lack of ability not placing the 5th in the right spot
    I guess it takes a while to work out an optimum load for my rifle. A few of the guys at the local club recommended starting with 24 grains of vit 140 and 69g Sierras and I’ll hopefully get some data to work on from there....

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris J View Post
    The kit arrived today. No doubt I’ll be picking your brains on Sunday about how to get the best out of it
    To be honest I’ve felt slightly overwhelmed by it all, but once I’ve started using it I’m sure my confidence will grow. I’ve asked my brother to give me a hand setting it all up as he’s an engineer and is use to working with strick tolerances. I tried the HPS 69g ammo last week at 200 yards on short Siberia and got some decent results. Comfortably shooting 1.5-2inch groups at that range. A few groups had 4 shots within a 1”, just my lack of ability not placing the 5th in the right spot
    I guess it takes a while to work out an optimum load for my rifle. A few of the guys at the local club recommended starting with 24 grains of vit 140 and 69g Sierras and I’ll hopefully get some data to work on from there....
    There's plenty more experienced than me there.

    https://www.vihtavuori.com/reloading...g/?cartridge=7

    PS do you need a funnel? I have a Saturn .22 specific spare you're welcome to if you've not picked one up yet, someone may as well get some use from someone
    Last edited by 223AI; 11-04-2018 at 07:26 AM.
    Thanks for looking

  10. #25
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    Thanks for that info, I’ll check it out.
    Also I received a pm last night, but unfortunately their inbox is full so I cannot respond.
    As always you guys are most helpful, it’s always appreciated

  11. #26
    Parabuteo is offline My Chrony has bought it a couple of times...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boydy47 View Post
    No, as said above it will depend on bullet profile, in my creedmoor a 139 gr Lapa scenar can be loaded at saami length and it's 10 thou off the ands, with a 140 gr S&B loaded at 2.825 the bullet jams into the lands and pressure spikes.

    Checking before you load up a bunch is a very good idea.....
    One of the reasons it is worth looking at factory crimping on mag length loads Scott is that it can simulate being in the landes withiout a nasty spike, but a more consistant release pressure...apparently. I know it reduced the group sizes on all of my loads as I only shoot mag length now matey.
    I'm a maggot in another life you know

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boydy47 View Post
    No, as said above it will depend on bullet profile, in my creedmoor a 139 gr Lapa scenar can be loaded at saami length and it's 10 thou off the ands, with a 140 gr S&B loaded at 2.825 the bullet jams into the lands and pressure spikes.

    Checking before you load up a bunch is a very good idea.....
    That’s interesting Boydy and shows the importance of making up a dummy round or at the very least carefully checking the round chambers properly in your rifle.

  13. #28
    Parabuteo is offline My Chrony has bought it a couple of times...
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    Quote Originally Posted by sundog View Post
    That’s interesting Boydy and shows the importance of making up a dummy round or at the very least carefully checking the round chambers properly in your rifle.
    Generally load to SAAMI spec to start with and get a decent group with load, then play with OAL
    I'm a maggot in another life you know

  14. #29
    Randy Bohannon's Avatar
    Randy Bohannon is offline “Junes1 is a whining bellend”
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    The SAAMI/CIP maximum overall cartridge length is just one bit of information, allied to cartridge specs is always chamber specs and in the latter, length of throat and/or leade is specified.

    What that means is that ammunition not only has to conform to SAAMI/CIP cartridge specification, but also must chamber in SAAMI/CIP specification chambers.

    This explains Boydy's case above where the Lapua scenar, being a very pointed slippery bullet, can poke further into the chamber without touching the rifling whereas the point on the ogive of the S&B 140 grain bullet which is 0.300", which is much dumpier and more sharply curved in the ogive, touches the rifling well before the cartridge length exceeds spec.

    OAL length is meaningless on it's own, it needs to be considered with factors like chamber cut, magazine length, length from base to calibre portion of the ogive for the particular bullet, etc.
    "An infinite number of monkeys banging away at type writers for an infinite period of time will eventually reproduce Hamlet" Thanks to discussion forums we now know this to be untrue.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parabuteo View Post
    Generally load to SAAMI spec to start with and get a decent group with load, then play with OAL
    Problem being I did load to saami with the S&B's ......
    Thanks for looking

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