Dioptre sight mystery

[Phil Russell]

Good day. I wonder if I can seek advice about dioptre sights. I am not a 10m rifle shooter so have very little experience of dioptres. My main experience comes from a Webley Service and I cannot count that as relevant.
I have recently refurbished an LGR that came with no sights. I am looking for a suitable set to complete the rifle but am getting confused as to what I should look for as I am getting puzzled over the various fitting methods. My LGR appears to have standard 11mm scope rails but I am not convinced all dioptres are made to fit this standard. I have googled etc for Walther LGR dioptres but so far have not found anything that I am convinced would fit. I thought a set made for a Diana 66 might fit but information received has cast doubt on that.
Can anyone advise me on what to look for. I am not looking to spent a fortune and may well end up getting a set of the Air Arms sights at about £30 if I can find nothing more original (no pun intended).
If anyone has a suitable set that you are willing to sell to a good home, please let me know.
Cheers, Phil

[zooma]

Hi Phil,

I have a genuine Walther diopter rear sight that came from an LGR Match and can probably also find the correct front sight tunnel for you too!

If you are interested please contact me by PM or email and I can send you some picture so you can see they are the genuine items.

Best regards,

Bob.

[RobF]

Dovetails on target rifles despite looking and supposedly measuring the same will differ enough for things not to fit. If you look at a shop like Intershoot you'll see that when you select a fore or rearsight it will ask you the make of rifle to ensure they send you the version which will fit.

So you'll want something that's been made for a walther, either walther own brand or a sight or set of sights made to fit one. Most big makes like Centra and indeed Anschutz have versions to fit.

[Phil Russell]

Thanks Rob... I am learning slowly so the information is most useful. It is good of you to 'spell it out' as it were. I had, almost, assumed that was the case because of the various bits of information on adverts for sights. Strange how it is these basic bits of information that you need to find out from those who know as I have not seen it specifically written down. So thank you.

Cheers, Phil

[TenMetrePeter]

Unfortunately the LGR and its rival the 300S have sights that are now "non standard " The front mounting dovetail is nearer 9mm or 3/8". You need a machine shop or if desparate epoxy a standard sight raiser block to the front to match one fitted to the rear.
Moral of the tale is never buy a vintage gun without sights as it usually costs more than the rifle is worth to replace them.
I just sold an LGR for £200 but broken up I could have made more selling you the sights and selling the stock to the other member on here!

[Phil Russell]

Unfortunately the LGR and its rival the 300S have sights that are now "non standard " The front mounting dovetail is nearer 9mm or 3/8". You need a machine shop or if desparate epoxy a standard sight raiser block to the front to match one fitted to the rear.
Moral of the tale is never buy a vintage gun without sights as it usually costs more than the rifle is worth to replace them.
I just sold an LGR for £200 but broken up I could have made more selling you the sights and selling the stock to the other member on here!

One of life's little learning curves, I guess.
On the plus side, the rifle did not work when I got it but I really enjoyed resealing it and seeing it work on spec after I had done so. And I now know what a 'puffer seal' is.
Cheers, Phil

[RobinC]

One of life's little learning curves, I guess.
On the plus side, the rifle did not work when I got it but I really enjoyed resealing it and seeing it work on spec after I had done so. And I now know what a 'puffer seal' is.
Cheers, Phil

Phil
You may find a better response to this in the classic collectors forum, but Bob (Zooma) has your answer, he has a full set of original LGR sights front and rear.

Walther front dovetails ARE different to Anschutz and every one of the modern companies , but Walther have not changed their dovetails since day one, they are the same profile today on modern Walther's, in fact up until very recently being old farts we always specified the standard 18 mm old style metal element carrying Walther front sight on our new Walthers, and had then on LG300's, LG400's, KK300's, and KK500.

The LGR front sight is different in finish, its a crackle finish, but the new current Walther 18 mm metal element holding standard front sight will fit the LGR dovetail perfectly, as will a Centra Walther fitting, and I've just tried both on an LGR to prove it!
The rear Walther dovetail is also the same from day one, and Anschutz items will also fit on that, and FWB with a tad easing. If you just want any sight, any of those will fit the rear. The correct LGR sight was used on the small bores of that period as well, and there are several slight variances over the years, all are OK. A few years (8 ish) ago Walther had some LGR pattern sights made for collectors in China, they were marked Walther and also had another logo underneath, but they were not happy with the quality and quickly withdrew them.

Have Fun
Robin
Best of luck

[RobinC]

Maybe as a general note this may be useful to those looking to change sights or fit sight raisers to target rifles.

There is No standard dovetail across the modern makes! BUT, most use, or SAY they use the Anschutz pattern dovetail. Across the current makes Anschutz, Bleiker, Keppeler, Pardini, Steyr, R&L, and so on, profess to use the Anschutz pattern dovetails, an Walther do for the rears, they all do, ish!

But in many cases there are variances in tolerance's, an example, we use Keppeler rifles who say they use Anschutz dovetails, yes, but, they are machined to the n'th, much tighter tolerance than Anschutz, superb precision, but you then often need a Swiss file to get them to fit! A lot of accessory manufacturers make their items with a bit more tolerance, so they will fit most things, and it depends on the method of fitting, but just beware that there are differences even with items claimed to be an Anschutz fit, but often are very tight. So in most cases the Anschutz fit for the rear is "almost" a standard, but I still keep Swiss files! Modern FWB has a very slight angle difference, front and back, and some Anschutz will fit, some won't!

We use RPA sights on some of our full bores, claimed to be Anschutz dovetail, well, generally only with attention with a Swiss file! Then the next one will fall one with no attention!

The big difference is front dovetail, Walther are different, always has been, it is a smaller width, and if like us you shoot several disciplines, and have Walther and other makes its a pain in the rear, so we have to have Walther specific front sights and Anschutz ones, and with sight raisers the rears are usable across the range, but the fronts are specific. Also just to confuse Anschutz changed their front dovetail in the 80's, so one date won't fit the other!

Early classics are a law unto themselves, Original/Diana, and so on are unique to them, although I have in the past modded Anschutz sights to fit on them.

So now I've really confused you, when you need sights or raisers, its best to order direct against the make, but also order a set of Swiss files!

Fun game this!
Robin

[Phil Russell]

Ho ho ... I had to laugh on reading the previous two posts ... so much for standardisation. I can see it is a minefield and I had not even considered the dovetail angle.
For the record, I have a Parker Hale PH1 foresight that fits very well on the LGR and I assume the angle is OK. But I have a foresight which I think is a HW one, or maybe Original that although it looks as if it should slide on the dovetails, will not. The difference is minimal, but enough. I have not resorted to Swiss files ...
The rear dovetail seems to be standard 11mm, or as near as I can judge as a set of normal scope mounts fit OK.
I am still learning and really appreciate all the information being given.

Onwards ..
Cheers, Phil

[Phil Russell]

OK: more confusion to be added to the fray. Not exactly 10m rifles but Original did 'Target' versions of the 35 and 50 models, equipped with dioptres.
I had a chance to look at their dioptre fittings this afternoon and guess what: they are all different and no way will any fit onto an LGR; indeed they will not be transferable from one model to the other. The ones with the large 'thumb wheel' fitting clearly fit onto dovetails with cross grooves to allow fine tuning of the position. Another version can be adjusted for elevation but seen to be screwed to the cylinder.
I wondered if a HW dioptre from a HW57 might fit, but no, the rails may fit but the fact that the bottom rear of the sight is below the cylinder means the LGR cocking lever cannot operate. Maybe a riser block would help but it would clearly be a bodge and so I consider it a 'no go'.
Clearly a lot to learn ...
Cheers, Phil

[zooma]

Problem solved Phil - I have the sights packed and ready to send to you!

Now you can relax and enjoy shooting your LGR as soon as they arrive!

Best regards,

Bob.

[RichardH]

Dont laugh but SMK do a perfectly serviceable diopter rearsight for standard dovetails for about £20

Cheap cheerful but works

[Phil Russell]

Thanks for the info Richard. I think (?) the SMK dioptre is the same as the one Air Arms sell?
But main problem is solved thanks to Zooma (Bob) and his dioptre set are now sitting on my LGR. Thanks Bob.
But I am now wiser regarding sight compatibility: Out of interest, I had an opportunity to try a Walther Sport rear unit (at least that was how it was described to me) but hey ho .. it would not fit the LGR. The dovetail grip was a thumb wheel tightening the rails by, for want of a better description, deforming them so that they gripped. It was impossible to get the rails to clip on the LGR in the first place but with a little persuasion and 'springing' them they did go on. But it was then not possible to tighten them because the part of the thumb wheel that threads onto the cross bolt to tighten the sight on the rails was touching the top of the LGR mounting on the cylinder so when you turned the thumb wheel, the complete sight would move on the dovetails. Again, so much for standardisation as it appears even Walther were not consistent.
So ... still learning. What fun; but I can see it being a bit frustrating for dedicated 10m target shooters. Maybe the standard 11mm rail air rifle shooters with scopes have it easy.
Cheers, Phil

[RobinC]

Phil

The sight you describe as a "Walther Sport", was not a Walther sight, all Walther sights from early days to current ones have a clamp similar to the ones on the LGR set Bob sent you. All Walther sights old and new, are compatible on old and new Walther dovetails

What you describe is an Anschutz 6700 series sight, they used that clamping method for many years, and on any thing, even Anschutz's, it was common to see people trying to pry them apart with a screw driver to get them off! The common mod with them was to saw off the front half of the clamp so it was just on one thumbwheel and less bend so they still clamped OK but came off easier!

Have Fun
Robin

[Phil Russell]

Thanks Robin.
Were there fakes around? The so called Walther Sport I saw was clearly marked with the Walther name. There was only one thumbwheel. A bolt on the LH side passed through the LH sight side and screwed into the thumbwheel; this was into a threaded 'tube' that was part of the thumbwheel and passed from the RH side of the sight across the dovetails. On fitting to the LGR, this threaded tube clearly just contacted the top of the LGR cylinder so that when the thumbwheel was turned the 'tube' in contact with the LGR cylinder moved the sight along the rails.
The mysteries deepen.
Cheers, Phil