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Thread: Why I am Beginning To Change My Mind About Sub12 Hunting

  1. #46
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    But we are not relying on absolute luck. Nor are we relying on absolute certainty. Is there anything in life that doesn't have some luck involved, or anything often with absolute certainty? Think the latter is death and taxes.

    Shooting animals is not controversial when done responsibly. In fact its very normal, its more weird to think otherwise. Bar one religion, there are few cultures that do not include other animals as part of natures bounty to exploit, or to control if a pest. How achieved, and to what level, with even what conservation to include, is part of a huge debate. But the management, conservation, and the bounty I take, is to me absolutely fine and very normal. I'm comfortable with it, and my dinner better for it

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barryg View Post
    Lots of different opinions but the facts are still the same, shot placement is luck because you can't predict when a animal is going to move, here are some wild rabbits and even when they are still you don't know when they are going to shake their head and scratch and at 30 yards there are also other factors to consider, think how far a rabbit can move from the time you pull the trigger.
    10.5-11 ft/lbs is for fun plinking and competitions, shooting live animals is controversial when you have to rely on luck.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1D_h...ature=youtu.be
    I think luck is the wrong word, makes it sound like anyone that hunts is irresponsible. That video doesn’t really represent a hunting scenario, the first part of it they presented themselves almost motionless and they were what I’d class as a viable shot.
    Very often when a rabbit clocks you he sits still and watches you get within range until you take the shot,if he carries on feeding a quick squeak or click brings him back up for the shot.

  3. #48
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    I think rabbits are cute, the little ones super cute.
    I've studied them for hours, not always through a rifle scope; thought hundreds I have.
    My children had pet rabbits too.
    But wild rabbits in numbers are an agricultural pest, quite a serious one.
    They taste good too.

    Rats aren't quite as appealing.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muskett View Post
    I am comfortable with using 12ft/lbs air rifles, and so is the the Law, for taking the designated critters within the farmyard.
    I am comfortable being a hunter and hold great respect for my quarry. I am realistic that its not a perfect world, and even with great diligence not ever outcome is always perfect. I strive to be as humane as practicably possible.


    I realise its not for everyone, and some hold other views.

    Humans have always hunted and taken a bounty from what nature provides. Its the natural way of things and those that wish to object to that I find weird; well a minority and a very alternative stand point. They are free to hold those views, but please can we have a bit less of the erroneous "morality high ground" baloney. If we were just vegetarians we wouldn't tolerate herbivores as they would be competing for our cereals. As it is modern farming uses pesticides on an industrial scale to provide our daily bread; just look at the bird population crash for the evidence.
    I think hunters are more aware of the human impact on the natural world than most. Far more than those who live within the metropolitan cities and have no clue other than what they see on their TV's when a nature programme happens to be the entertainment that night.
    I've put my view across plenty of times.

    For 12ft/lbs air rifle hunting then shot placement is everything. What effective range is dependant on the skill of the shooter. The final decision is with the person pulling the trigger.
    In truth shot placement is always the most important part, that and using enough "gun" to do the business. Or we could always just nuke them
    , Commonsense MrMuskett well put, i use sub 12 fpe up to 45 yds and fac air .22 at 37fpe which is good for 70 yds in the right conditions, accuracy is the goal in all shots imho it does not matter the size of pellet or the power behind it its ACCURACY all the way.

    atb brian

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pelletpinger View Post
    I think luck is the wrong word, makes it sound like anyone that hunts is irresponsible. That video doesn’t really represent a hunting scenario, the first part of it they presented themselves almost motionless and they were what I’d class as a viable shot.
    Very often when a rabbit clocks you he sits still and watches you get within range until you take the shot,if he carries on feeding a quick squeak or click brings him back up for the shot.

    It's not luck. It's a mathematical equation based on precision, accuracy, lethality (which used to be measured by the military as retained muzzle energy, now measured better as wound effect), range, range judging, wind and wind judging, etc.

    That complex equation suggests that going much beyond 30, maybe 40, yards/metres with an air gun is questionable, for anyone.

    Terry D, who is a very highly skilled shot, proven by his FT record, has a long-standing challenge to the "I kill everything at 55 yards" gang to go head-to-head on a range, with the results written up in AGW. None of them has ever taken on the challenge.

    For me, that's case closed. 12 is fine, at sensible ranges. Sensible meaning when you can reliably hit the (brain) kill zone.

  6. #51
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    I've shot some squirrels of late with a sub 12 ft. lb. .177 JSB Exact. Bottom line is, if you are going to shoot a squirrel with a 12 ft. lb. gun, expect it to do some acrobatics. In my experience, it's impossible to be 100% certain of a clean kill. Even at 15-20 yards you just never know when the squirrel will may slightly move it's head. I've waited for ages on the perfect time to shoot and have still had them move slightly. I think they were still kill shots, but it does make me think about it very hard. I shot one out at 25 m and was certain I'd hit the spot, but the thing did some very strange twitching. Head and chest were flat on the ground, but the rear end was standing up still and the tail was straight up and doing this little curl and uncurl thing with the tip of the tail. I ran out to it to put in another shot, but it was obviously dead. The pellet passed through right between the eye and ear on both sides with the top of the skull ruptured a bit. Squirrels are solid muscle and it would take a cannon to drop one, if they weighed a couple hundred pounds.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by FPoole View Post
    I've shot some squirrels of late with a sub 12 ft. lb. .177 JSB Exact. Bottom line is, if you are going to shoot a squirrel with a 12 ft. lb. gun, expect it to do some acrobatics. In my experience, it's impossible to be 100% certain of a clean kill. Even at 15-20 yards you just never know when the squirrel will may slightly move it's head. I've waited for ages on the perfect time to shoot and have still had them move slightly. I think they were still kill shots, but it does make me think about it very hard. I shot one out at 25 m and was certain I'd hit the spot, but the thing did some very strange twitching. Head and chest were flat on the ground, but the rear end was standing up still and the tail was straight up and doing this little curl and uncurl thing with the tip of the tail. I ran out to it to put in another shot, but it was obviously dead. The pellet passed through right between the eye and ear on both sides with the top of the skull ruptured a bit. Squirrels are solid muscle and it would take a cannon to drop one, if they weighed a couple hundred pounds.
    Be a very scary animal if it were medium dog size, they are definitely hardcore tough creatures.
    "corners should be round" Theo Evo .22/.177 - Meopta 6x42, DS huntsman classic .20 vortex razor LH 3-15x42 under supervised boingrati tuning by Tony L & Tinbum, HW77 forest green - Nikon prostaff 2-7x32 plex.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhyslightnin View Post
    Be a very scary animal if it were medium dog size, they are definitely hardcore tough creatures.
    "With sharp pointy teeth" !
    “Let us not dwell on the distance we have fallen short, let us dwell on the distance we have travelled" !

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muskett View Post
    I am comfortable with using 12ft/lbs air rifles, and so is the the Law, for taking the designated critters within the farmyard.
    I am comfortable being a hunter and hold great respect for my quarry. I am realistic that its not a perfect world, and even with great diligence not ever outcome is always perfect. I strive to be as humane as practicably possible.


    I realise its not for everyone, and some hold other views.

    Humans have always hunted and taken a bounty from what nature provides. Its the natural way of things and those that wish to object to that I find weird; well a minority and a very alternative stand point. They are free to hold those views, but please can we have a bit less of the erroneous "morality high ground" baloney. If we were just vegetarians we wouldn't tolerate herbivores as they would be competing for our cereals. As it is modern farming uses pesticides on an industrial scale to provide our daily bread; just look at the bird population crash for the evidence.
    I think hunters are more aware of the human impact on the natural world than most. Far more than those who live within the metropolitan cities and have no clue other than what they see on their TV's when a nature programme happens to be the entertainment that night.
    I've put my view across plenty of times.

    For 12ft/lbs air rifle hunting then shot placement is everything. What effective range is dependant on the skill of the shooter. The final decision is with the person pulling the trigger.
    In truth shot placement is always the most important part, that and using enough "gun" to do the business. Or we could always just nuke them
    It's interesting how different countries view what is acceptable to shoot with a airgun, a post over on the DWC was talking about shooting dogs with a Diana 54, I guess that you would disagree in the same way some countries would disagree with you.
    Look at this quote.

    March 9th, 2012, 1:13 pm #34
    Umair, it shot placement. I am sure you have heard this, but when using a light rifle like you are it has to be exact. I get the same type of response from people here in North Dakota when I tell them I deer hunt with a .223. Don't worry about it. Use what you have and be as good as you can with it. Get as close as you feel safe to maximize your impact energy and shoot as straight and true as you can.

    The rest of you guys, have you ever been over seas to one of the countries with dog troubles? I was deployed to Iraq, and when we moved into Balad Airfield the dogs were thick. Like squirrels in a park thick. Feral dogs like these aren't large critters, I would guess 30 pounds at best; and they have no fear of humans having been around them their whole lives.

    I understand Umair's problem completely. He needs to keep his kids and family safe, but doesn't have appropriate fire power. What should he use, a spear? These dogs are hungry, people have food. They won't leave you alone. I would rather see a dog die slow than someone die of rabies. You guys know it destroys your nerves and brain, right?

    Umair, please be safe while shooting these dogs. Maybe bring a shovel with for backup.

  10. #55
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    I do believe in using enough gun.
    The .22LR has been used to shoot nearly every beast on the planet. Some way unethical but still been done. The .22LR have the potential to kill an elephant, its been done, but to me only by an irresponsible idiot.
    Then there is the right gun but too soft a bullet. The example that I know true is a shepherd who used a Webley revolver three shots on the head of a distressed sheep. The following day the sheep had recovered with three welts on its head, absolutely fine. The lead bullets far too soft and without much velocity for some reason.
    Interestingly in the not so distant past British Officers, Police and Military, carried Webley pistols not just for the bad guys, but more commonly used to shoot rabid dogs and put maimed horses down.
    Red Indians used quite low powered bows to bring down Buffalo. Just enough power to penetrate to the heart.

    Shot placement and enough to reach a vital organ is all that is required. More gun is often just to compensate for error in placement. However, some tough animal's will for life is high and it takes a lot to bring them down; the African buffalo notorious for how tough they are which makes them so dangerous.

    Airgun power varies considerably from only a few ft/lbs to military weapons of great power. I've had a grey squirrel jump at my face having five .22 pellets in its body fired from a Webley MKIII which were know to be pretty powerful. Its why I only head soot them now. Export rifles can easily be a lot higher than 12ft/lbs, your Diana example may have twice that power??? Enough to deal with a dog sized animal. More importantly is it legitimate to the law of the land??? Heck, Halal hunters do not shoot to kill as only a slitting of the throat of say a deer is religiously acceptable for human consumption.
    There are some really weird ways used to harvest nature's bounty around the world, many are not legal in the UK. Many would make me uneasy.

    So I'm not sure where we are going with this thread now. I know what I find acceptable, and keep to that. What other cultures do is up to them.

  11. #56
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    Unfortunately,the straight jacket of 12ftlbs legislation makes it impossible for the average shooter to easily tailor their gun's power output to be ideal for the required circumstances,(beyond certain distances)!

    That said,though and as can be seen on a number of youtube air gun hunting channels, 12ftlbs is actually more than adequate on recognised air gun quarry out to relatively silly distances to obtain a clean kill.

    It's the loopy 12ftlb trajectory that the skilfull shooter has to deal with that increases the challenge.

    We,(air gun enthusiasts),of course have always known this!

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barryg View Post
    Even if you were a world champion it would only be luck for a humaine quick kill because animals move, so shot placement is unreliable.
    Well Barry, my sub-12 rifles and I must have been plain old 'lucky' literally thousands of times over the years. Unless the countless hours of training, learning, experience and dedication had anything to do with my successes in the field.
    If you don't know enough to judge - don't judge

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry D View Post
    Well Barry, my sub-12 rifles and I must have been plain old 'lucky' literally thousands of times over the years. Unless the countless hours of training, learning, experience and dedication had anything to do with my successes in the field.
    Successes in the field? We were talking about hunting there Mellors, hunting...

  14. #59
    secretagentmole Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Geezer View Post
    It's not luck. It's a mathematical equation based on precision, accuracy, lethality (which used to be measured by the military as retained muzzle energy, now measured better as wound effect), range, range judging, wind and wind judging, etc.

    That complex equation suggests that going much beyond 30, maybe 40, yards/metres with an air gun is questionable, for anyone.

    Terry D, who is a very highly skilled shot, proven by his FT record, has a long-standing challenge to the "I kill everything at 55 yards" gang to go head-to-head on a range, with the results written up in AGW. None of them has ever taken on the challenge.

    For me, that's case closed. 12 is fine, at sensible ranges. Sensible meaning when you can reliably hit the (brain) kill zone.
    Which is why, like when driving, you use sensible distances given the prevailing conditions...

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry D View Post
    Well Barry, my sub-12 rifles and I must have been plain old 'lucky' literally thousands of times over the years. Unless the countless hours of training, learning, experience and dedication had anything to do with my successes in the field.
    Terry what would you say the odds are of a animal keeping still while someone places their shot, about 50 50?
    I suppose that there a are caring hunters but it seem like it's on a sliding scale from really caring to psychopath

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