BSA & Webley & bell target rifles

[trajectory]

Well this is something I'd be interested in hearing opinions on. It's something I've wondered before but my 'production numbers v calibre' question has brought it to mind again.
Back in the early days there were all manner of makes of air rifle being used for bell target shooting, but as time went on BSA seems to have been the preferred maker with various models being available over the years. So I think they were the ones with the largest market share in this sector up until the second world war. Bell target popularity had probably peaked by then but after the war (1939-1945) BSA introduced the Airsporter/Club model, Webley introduced the MkIII & a Supertarget version in due course with match sights, but I wonder if it was marketed to sell into the bell target or the 6yd target market. Either way what surprises me a bit is that BSA with their sucess in bell target shooting didnt introduce an equivalent of the Supertarget with a decent set of apperture sights. If Webley thought there was a market what was it that stopped BSA going down the same route? Certainly the Club was available but I have never seen any with anything other than standard open sights. Was it that the Webley was more hand made & so varriations were easier to accomodate in production compared to the BSA line? Or are there other reasons?
Any ideas?

[harry mac]

I think it was probably because BSA were more "savvy" to the bell target market. Their products had been market leader in that field for years before WW2, so they were probably better placed to notice the down-turn in popularity of bell target as a sport. Webley came late to the game, trying to corner the market with the Supertarget, but bell target was already on its way out by that time, as was 6yd competition. By the middle of the 1970s, bell target and 6yd shooting had given way almost entirely to 10m matches, best shot with recoilless rifles and pistols.
I think BSA got out while the getting was good, but Webley just didn't read the writing on the wall.

[Josie & John]

Well this is something I'd be interested in hearing opinions on. It's something I've wondered before but my 'production numbers v calibre' question has brought it to mind again.
Back in the early days there were all manner of makes of air rifle being used for bell target shooting, but as time went on BSA seems to have been the preferred maker with various models being available over the years. So I think they were the ones with the largest market share in this sector up until the second world war. Bell target popularity had probably peaked by then but after the war (1939-1945) BSA introduced the Airsporter/Club model, Webley introduced the MkIII & a Supertarget version in due course with match sights, but I wonder if it was marketed to sell into the bell target or the 6yd target market. Either way what surprises me a bit is that BSA with their sucess in bell target shooting didnt introduce an equivalent of the Supertarget with a decent set of apperture sights. If Webley thought there was a market what was it that stopped BSA going down the same route? Certainly the Club was available but I have never seen any with anything other than standard open sights. Was it that the Webley was more hand made & so varriations were easier to accomodate in production compared to the BSA line? Or are there other reasons?
Any ideas?

Parker Hale did offer an aperture sight option for the Airsporter/Club and I have one of each. Both are incredibly accurate and one even has a ramped PH FS21 tunnel foresight fitted to match the 10 AS Sportarget aperture sight. It belonged to a former match shooter. BSA also produced the Mercury Target in 1972 - 3 but in very small numbers.

The advent of recoilless German match air rifles and international 10 Metre match shooting stifled the traditional British distance of 6 yards but did not kill it off entirely as Bell Target has survived to this day. The Muscle Power League has recently resurrected 6 yard match with classic air rifles and long may they enjoy continued success.

John

[ptdunk]

We do a vintage bell target Comp after our monthly Vintage Hft Comp at Lee Valley.
It’s great fun and has led me to learn a bit about the history of Bell target.

the whole thing about training people marksmanship after the Boer war and the idea of brummie pubs ringing to the sound of bells and cheers is very interesting.

Matt.

[trajectory]

Interesting replies. P&H sights on an Airsporter or Club that's something you don't see very often. Is the Airsporter a 177? What mark of Airsporter is it please? I assume it is 177 but if you don't ask you don't find out.
Thanks for I remember the Mercury in its target guise & can quite understand why its not often seen. It must have been a very small take up. Wouldn't mind having a go at making up an Airsporter with contemporary apperture sights, the only thing that puts me off is messing with a 50s Airsporter in 177 but if it could be reverted to original form without any holes etc it might appeal enough to have a go.
Also nice to hear that bell target shooting is still going on........Frank Spittle wrote a nice little book on it, a good read. I'd say its worth getting a copy if you are interested in the topic.

[Josie & John]

Interesting replies. P&H sights on an Airsporter or Club that's something you don't see very often. Is the Airsporter a 177? What mark of Airsporter is it please? I assume it is 177 but if you don't ask you don't find out.
Thanks for I remember the Mercury in its target guise & can quite understand why its not often seen. It must have been a very small take up. Wouldn't mind having a go at making up an Airsporter with contemporary apperture sights, the only thing that puts me off is messing with a 50s Airsporter in 177 but if it could be reverted to original form without any holes etc it might appeal enough to have a go.
Also nice to hear that bell target shooting is still going on........Frank Spittle wrote a nice little book on it, a good read. I'd say its worth getting a copy if you are interested in the topic.

The Sportarget sighted Airsporter Mk1 is a .22, whilst the Sportarget/FS21 sighted rifle is a .177 Mk2. I have seen a similar Mk2 (but with a standard ramped foresight) advertised by John Knibbs' business a year ago for £650, which is no longer being advertised, so I assume it sold. A very nice Sportarget sighted Mk1 recently sold on G*nstar a month or two ago for £300 and I know at least 2 other members on here have owned similar rifles, so they are out there.

Agreed about Frank Spittle's book - I regret never visiting his Museum of Marksmanship when the opportunity was there.

John

[trajectory]

The Sportarget sighted Airsporter Mk1 is a .22, whilst the Sportarget/FS21 sighted rifle is a .177 Mk2. I have seen a similar Mk2 (but with a standard ramped foresight) advertised by John Knibbs' business a year ago for £650, which is no longer being advertised, so I assume it sold. A very nice Sportarget sighted Mk1 recently sold on G*nstar a month or two ago for £300 and I know at least 2 other members on here have owned similar rifles, so they are out there.

Agreed about Frank Spittle's book - I regret never visiting his Museum of Marksmanship when the opportunity was there.

John

John, thanks for that. Just wondering about the term 'Sportarget', is that the trade name they were marketed under or rather a more general description to indicate their potential to fill a dual role? I like the Webley mk III but BSA late version 'target' rifle is beginning to get attractive.

[Josie & John]

John, thanks for that. Just wondering about the term 'Sportarget', is that the trade name they were marketed under or rather a more general description to indicate their potential to fill a dual role? I like the Webley mk III but BSA late version 'target' rifle is beginning to get attractive.

Yes, Sportarget was a term used by Parker Hale for this particular sight. I've attached a few images of my two Airsporters along with another I once owned, that is fitted with a PH17 aperture sight. I regret selling that one! These rifles are an absolute joy to shoot, especially as my eyesight is starting to struggle with standard open sights.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/Vh3g8BjxohpnzVLQ6

Kind regards,

John

[greenwayjames]

Special order early Airsporters could be had. I had one, bought secondhand in the 70's from someone who had it as a special with factory checkering and PH sights front and rear. The association with Parker Hale was quite close. They were only a few hundred yards down the road and even shared a sports and social club. The Mercury Targets were made for salesmen to ship around dealers and gauge reaction. It wasnt favourable and those made were sold off.

[Josie & John]

Special order early Airsporters could be had. I had one, bought secondhand in the 70's from someone who had it as a special with factory checkering and PH sights front and rear. The association with Parker Hale was quite close. They were only a few hundred yards down the road and even shared a sports and social club. The Mercury Targets were made for salesmen to ship around dealers and gauge reaction. It wasnt favourable and those made were sold off.

Interesting anecdotes. A news snippet in Guns Review hinted that some Airsporters were also fitted with the same ramp as the Mercury Target but as far as I am aware, none are known today; unless you know different?

Kind regards,

John

[trajectory]

John thanks for posting those pictures, only problem now is that I want one!
Grenwayjames, hanks too, I remember some of the Webley modifications you could order up along with a new mkIII but ive not seen a list for a BSA equivalent list. Those Mercuries might be rare but I think they were a bit optimistic if they thought they were going to be competitive.

[Josie & John]

John thanks for posting those pictures, only problem now is that I want one!
Grenwayjames, hanks too, I remember some of the Webley modifications you could order up along with a new mkIII but ive not seen a list for a BSA equivalent list. Those Mercuries might be rare but I think they were a bit optimistic if they thought they were going to be competitive.

It may be worth taking a look at what Kempton has to offer next Sunday - I found a Club Mark 2 at the last one.

I have Target Mercury and swapped the standard 1.1 mm eyepiece for an adjustable one. It made all the difference and now the rifle is as accurate to use as a Webley Supertarget or similar.

Good luck in finding an aperture sighted Airsporter/Club - you won't regret it!

John

[greenwayjames]

John thanks for posting those pictures, only problem now is that I want one!
Grenwayjames, hanks too, I remember some of the Webley modifications you could order up along with a new mkIII but ive not seen a list for a BSA equivalent list. Those Mercuries might be rare but I think they were a bit optimistic if they thought they were going to be competitive.

I have never seen a list of "extras" for BSAs but if a dealer had the right connections BSA had the skills, back then of course Shooters had an aversion to barrels that moved which went against the Mercury Target.

[greenwayjames]

Interesting anecdotes. A news snippet in Guns Review hinted that some Airsporters were also fitted with the same ramp as the Mercury Target but as far as I am aware, none are known today; unless you know different?

Kind regards,

John

Nothing anecdotal about my post spud

[trajectory]

In bell shooting nowadays is it split into recoiling & recoilless or do they all compete on equal terms with a few special events for the older designs?