Senior Newbie

[Modski66]

Had a first proper go with my Webley Senior this evening, and I don't know where to start!
The trigger is so heavy compared to my Tempest, and when it goes, it gives quite a kick. The good thing is, it does not twist to the right, so it reminds me of a single shot 22lr pistol I shot many years ago. The compact size and the weight give it a hint of a firearm experience, more so than any of the co2 replicas I have had.
However, for all that 'action', it could not punch a clean hole in a target card at 10m with 0.22 Hobbys, something my Tempest can do easily. Should the Senior be able to do this?
Three jobs on my list so far:-
1. Polish all the faces in the trigger mechanism that move against each other.
2. Check the breech seal.
3. Check the main spring. (Not sure what I should be looking for here!)
I might invest in a leaf spring for the trigger rather than the creaky coil spring currently fitted.
Should I be checking anything else?

[Lakey]

A senior should be a lot more capable than your gun, so you are right to investigate. From memory I think seniors had a phosphor bronze piston ring, instead of the normal leather washer. The piston ring needs to be properly lubricated otherwise it does make a good seal., also the breech washers dry out and become ineffective. Good luck

Lakey

[ggggr]

Had a first proper go with my Webley Senior this evening, and I don't know where to start!
The trigger is so heavy compared to my Tempest, and when it goes, it gives quite a kick. The good thing is, it does not twist to the right, so it reminds me of a single shot 22lr pistol I shot many years ago. The compact size and the weight give it a hint of a firearm experience, more so than any of the co2 replicas I have had.
However, for all that 'action', it could not punch a clean hole in a target card at 10m with 0.22 Hobbys, something my Tempest can do easily. Should the Senior be able to do this?
Three jobs on my list so far:-
1. Polish all the faces in the trigger mechanism that move against each other.
2. Check the breech seal.
3. Check the main spring. (Not sure what I should be looking for here!)
I might invest in a leaf spring for the trigger rather than the creaky coil spring currently fitted.
Should I be checking anything else?

There is not a lot you can do with the trigger really, although someone who used to target shoot with one told me they used to put a 5 degree radius on the holding face of the piston and do similar on the holding face of the sear with a really soft stone. As I see it the main problem is the sear is vertical and does not pivot (I can only think of the Senior and the Relum underlever pistols that have a vertical sear). You can stone the sides of the sear and I guess if you had a very small stone or maybe a needle file with wet and dry paper, you could clean up the groove the sear slides in. Somebody gave me a leaf spring out of a lock that was slightly softer then the proper leaf spring.
If someone had an old/scrap sear, I was tinkering with the idea of trying to get it better.
With Webley pistols, especially old leather ones, a replacemet seal really helps as they can lose power and become slammy.
Mainsprings tend to be generic for the Webley pistols now and if you get a new one, the gun may actually benefit from taking a couple of coils off it. (More spring = Heavier trigger).
When you strip the gun, there is no harm in using Gn paste, BUT I would use it with a mineral oil as well. I think Webley oil was straight SAE 40 engine oil?
I prefer the Senior to the Premier.
If you want to get your Tempest trigger really good,I did post something on here and I think Danny put it up with pics on his site.

PS--just seen your gun has the coil spring trigger. Is that correct? Must be quite and early one then? Waits for Josie and John or one of the other experts to get on.

[Modski66]

Mine has the 'Birmingham 4' marking which dates it to 1958, I also saw on an old thread that the coil springs were replaced around 1955, so I have at least narrowed down its year of production to a 9 year window.
I was hoping that the batch numbers might also give a clue to dates, mine is 2237 (higher number=later?), but I think it is a vain hope!

[harvey_s]

Certainly, just polishing the piston's sear face can make a huge difference.

[45flint]

Best investment in airgunning is a chronograph, with it your really guessing.

[45flint]

Quick read of the Bruce book on Webley pistols says both the Senior and the Temptest shoot the same 330 FPS in 22. My 1946 Senior shoots 312 FPS and is stock I’m sure: not a mark on it. 70 year old spring has lost a little? Should be same performance as a Temptest. I would try a target but it way too cold outside. Lol

[Modski66]

Having let some SAE30 soak onto the piston ring overnight, it still feels very stiff to cock compared to my Tempest, but not had chance to fire it yet.
I think the spring guide must be very dry, making the spring graunchy when it is being compressed.
When I strip it down, I am going to polish the spring guide and as much of the inside of the spring as possible. I am quite looking forward to seeing what it is like inside after 70 years, presuming no one else has had it apart!

[Troubledshooter]

Having let some SAE30 soak onto the piston ring overnight, it still feels very stiff to cock compared to my Tempest, but not had chance to fire it yet.
I think the spring guide must be very dry, making the spring graunchy when it is being compressed.
When I strip it down, I am going to polish the spring guide and as much of the inside of the spring as possible. I am quite looking forward to seeing what it is like inside after 70 years, presuming no one else has had it apart!

It sounds like someone has possibly fitted an alien spring, or the spring is in two pieces.
If there is any lubrication in the spring guide, it will be via the spring.
It's always worth a light coating of lubricant on the spring when re-assembling the pistol.
The phosphor bronze piston ring gets it's lubrication from the few drops of SAE 30 sparingly applied through the cocking slot, as marked.
I don't think I've ever chrono'd a standard Webley pistol, as I can normally tell if something isn't right from the feel of it when cocked and fired.
I'm sure you'll get there in the end.

[Modski66]

Alien springs you say, made from Unobtainium?

There is no question about getting it sorted, I am a mechanical engineer with a reputation to uphold...

[M.Meijer]

Most likely cause for a harsh trigger mechanism on early Seniors is the one-piece sear that often has an irregular internal surface on which the trigger actuates. With the change to a leaf - or rather thong - spring in 1955 the sear was changed into a two-piece item, the second part now a round steel pin offering a very smooth surface for the trigger to engage on. It made a dramatic difference in my 1948-ish Senior, coupled with a smooth resistance build up by that leaf spring. See page 84-85 in the Bruce book. Why Webley's top model pistol was equiped with such a poor design for a trigger has never been explained to my knowledge, given they had a very adequate trigger in the Mark 1. Perhaps it was a desire to come up with something 'different', like the bronze piston ring that does not impress either.

[Modski66]

The weight of the trigger was very evident last night when I was shooting the "Senior" back to back with my Tempest. The Tempest felt like a match pistol!

It was much smoother to cock, and was punching clean holes in the target. The "Senior" was tearing chunks in the card.

I now have a good benchmark to compare pre and post fettling; I would like to think I have some free time in the next couple of weeks, so I will be fitting the new thong from Knibbs and do all the other tweaks.

[Modski66]

Someone made a comment at the club the other night about how curved the trigger is. I had not really thought about it too much, but while looking at pictures of the barrel knurling length, I noticed that some models have a much straighter trigger.

I cannot see any correlation with age and trigger shape: some pre 1949 (long knurled) have the curved variant and some don't, and some post 1949 models seem equally inconsistent.

Was it just a random thing as to which trigger was fitted?