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Thread: AG Banks on air rifle shooting 1940 - accuracy and positions with BSA/Webley rifles

  1. #1
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    AG Banks on air rifle shooting 1940 - accuracy and positions with BSA/Webley rifles

    I have just read a most interesting and informative article by AG Banks on air rifle shooting, written in 1940, which can be seen somewhere in the middle of this website page, from the Vintage Airgun Forum.

    https://forum.vintageairgunsgallery....ated-articles/

    The author denotes the different results, after extensive testing, according to varying holds with the BSA Standard and the Webley Mkll. Using the prone position, he perfects his hold, such that the butt of the rifle barely touches his shoulder. He then sits with his elbows on a table, on the ground in the sitting position and, finally, taking standing shots with his elbow on his hip. Each time the rifle rises a little and across to the right (with his BSA Standard). However, using the Webley Mkll, the point of impact falls vertically, albeit neither to the right or left. This, he attributes to the differing mechanics of the Mkll, with the barrel above the cylinder.

    I wonder to what extent members here have come across similar observations with regard to various stances/holds/rifles.

    I noticed, as a young teenager, that resting an air rifle on a window sill, as we all did, that the point of impact altered markedly and this informed me that the best accuracy could be obtained by sighting in a rifle via the prone position, without a rest - something I have continued to this day. Perhaps I should experiment more widely.

    Rgds to all
    A

  2. #2
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    A.G Banks

    I remember as a young lad (about 60 years ago) reading this article in "A.G.'s book of the rifle" borrowed from the local library. In fact it was reading the book which inspired me to join a club and take up small-bore shooting and then full-bore and, later, competitive air-pistol and air-rifle.
    It was quite nostalgic to read again the reproduced article on the respective power/accuracy attributes of the BSA and Webley Mk11 although I recall the book was essentially devoted to prone small bore target shooting with advice on holding, aiming, breathing, position etc. and written by Banks who was the first winner of the Queen Alexandra trophy in 1907. Since 1940 techniques,rifle accuracy and equipment have improved enormously. From memory there was only one chapter on air rifle shooting but an interesting read!

    Aubrey

  3. #3
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    Thanks for that,
    an interesting read.

    The BSA and Service having opposite directions of piston travel might account for the high/low POI's.

    Still sound advice for springer shooters today: a light, repeatable hold and good trigger technique.

    I only just discovered that my HW97 has a different POI from bench to prone. As I shoot it in HFT comps I've taken to only zeroing it prone.
    The missus's HW95 has the same POI for bench and prone. Maybe something to do with us having different shaped shoulders?

    In Vintage HFT the old pre-war BSA's and break barrels seem to shift around a bit on the shoulder when firing prone, and can have a totally different POI when shot standing.
    Most people shoot the pre-war vintage HFT comp standing, I certainly find it more enjoyable with pre-war rifles.

    In the Classic HFT comp I shoot my FWB sport prone as it's very stable in that position.


    Matt.

    btw my Bonehill Britannia is crazy accurate when shot standing!

  4. #4
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    AG Banks

    It certainly is an interesting and absorbing article.

    For some reason, the pre-war rifles seem more sensitive to hold although I would add that this applies to the Mk3 too. It might be something to do with the light weight and the kick, which seems a little stronger for pre-war rifles. My Original 45 is more forgiving, being quite heavy whereas my FWB is rather more sensitive but less so than the older rifles.

    Alas, there seems to be no hard and fast rule; one has to try to recreate the same shooting hold at various positions. I have noticed with my 'new' BSA Standard that I am shooting in groups an inch to the left at 25yds but, having altered the sights (a tricky tapping operation), I am then shooting an inch to the right on another day, having been spot on a day or two earlier. Clearly, it is the hold but I have yet to fathom how it is varying and, with January weather, I fear I shall have to wait a month or two to get to the bottom of this.

    By the way, Matt, out of curiosity, what sort of power do you get from your Bonehill?

    Rgds
    A
    Last edited by andrewM; 16-01-2019 at 02:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by andrewM View Post

    By the way, Matt, out of curiosity, what sort of power do you get from your Bonehill?

    Rgds
    A
    Hi Andrew,
    My Britannia does 7.5 ftlbs which I believe is close to what they put out new.
    It’s very easy to cock and has a nice firing cycle do I wouldn’t want to try to increase the power.
    How about yours if you have one?

    Matt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ptdunk View Post
    Hi Andrew,
    My Britannia does 7.5 ftlbs which I believe is close to what they put out new.
    It’s very easy to cock and has a nice firing cycle do I wouldn’t want to try to increase the power.
    How about yours if you have one?

    Matt.
    I do not have a Britannia but they are not uncommon. I just wondered what power they produced and guessed it would probably be in the region of about 6-9 ft/lbs.

  7. #7
    keith66 is offline Optimisic Pessimist Fella
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    Back in the 70's i was given a copy of Ag Banks book of the rifle by an elderly neigbour who was a member of Benfleet rifle club where AG had been secretary for many years. Like a fool i lent the book to someone & predictably never got it back depite much chasing.
    Some years back i was lucky enough to find a replacement in our local charity shop of all places along with AG Banks other book "Thoughts on rifles & Rifle shooting", He was far ahead of his time in advocating small bore military calibres.
    My father in law was also a member & had shot at bisley with Banks himself.
    In the 80's I visited the club with my neighbour & applied to join, there was a limited membership & long waiting list, basically dead mens shoes. The range burned down in a fire & the land was sold for development by the landowner. I never did know if i moved up the waiting list! I believe the club still exists.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by keith66 View Post
    Back in the 70's i was given a copy of Ag Banks book of the rifle by an elderly neigbour who was a member of Benfleet rifle club where AG had been secretary for many years. Like a fool i lent the book to someone & predictably never got it back depite much chasing.
    Some years back i was lucky enough to find a replacement in our local charity shop of all places along with AG Banks other book "Thoughts on rifles & Rifle shooting", He was far ahead of his time in advocating small bore military calibres.
    My father in law was also a member & had shot at bisley with Banks himself.
    In the 80's I visited the club with my neighbour & applied to join, there was a limited membership & long waiting list, basically dead mens shoes. The range burned down in a fire & the land was sold for development by the landowner. I never did know if i moved up the waiting list! I believe the club still exists.
    http://benfleetrifleclub.com

    I believe it does.

    Somehow, Banks has flown under my radar screen until now. £20 on Amazon for two books has fixed that.

  9. #9
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    Nice read. I like old stuff
    Regarding the BSA being off sideways and the Webley only vertical etc; you cant really conclude it definitely is the rifle. There are so many other factors to consider.
    Zero position > BSA always straying to the right may suggest zero postion error
    Trigger; weight and LOP > more weight may cause trigger errors and/or cause more pressure on the pistolgrip. LOP same
    And, of course, because of different barrel harmonics per rifle (due to different barrel length, speed etc) the pellet will have a different POI anyhow between 2 different guns


    That said; every airgun is different; not all like all stances. I had a NEW Diana 31 which refused to group in sitting FT position. I refused to believe there was something wrong with it as it was new so started experimenting with my hold/stance. Eventually shot it from the fist and it became my most accurate airrifle so far (springer) with 7mm edge-edge groups at 20m.

    Must add my MK3 seems to be quite forgiving in hold
    ATB,
    yana

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