A couple of interesting home-made air pistols

[ccdjg]

I recently picked up a couple of home-made air pistols. One is a gat-type that was obviously scratch built, and the other is a customised Webley Mark 1. I don’t usually look to collect this sort of thing (except for my own efforts) but sometimes you get them almost accidentally, sometimes they just intrigue you. Although I have no information about who made them, or when they were made, they do have some features of interest.

The push-barrel pistol is of very heavy and solid construction, all-steel except for a brass barrel liner and milled brass grip plates. All the components are closely machined and the frame is held together entirely by screws, with no rivets, spot welds or pins. It was clearly made by someone with excellent machining skills, but whoever it was wasn’t very hot on fancy looks.






Although it follows the typical gat design, the maker introduced some original features of his own, such as the unusual loading pin arrangement and the trigger/sear system. The gun also has an unusually long piston stroke for this type of pistol, so the intention was probably to produce something with a bit more oomph than the average push-barrel.




The gun has no markings, so no clue as to who could have made it, but as all the screws are BA it was almost certainly made in this country. From the patina on the frame, corrosion on the brass plates when received, and the general appearance of the internals when I took it apart I would say that it was made more than 50 years ago, perhaps immediate pre-war or post war.

I know it’s fanciful speculation, but I can’t help feeling there is a connection between this and the first Harrington Gats from before the war. I have had a close look at one of these Harringtons, which have some key differences to their later post-war versions. The Harrington uses two fixing screws and these also have BA threads. You can see a loose similarity between the trigger mechanisms of the two pistols (the Harrington is on the right):




Maybe this pistol was Harrington’s first prototype when he started to explore the possibility of making his own push-barrel pistol? Wishful thinking I know, but who knows? It was definitely made to be easily taken apart. It seems that a few Bussey prototype pistols and at least one Lincoln Jeffries prototype pistol have found their way onto the collecting scene and were never scrapped. Why not a Harrington prototype? If anybody knowns anything about this pistol I would be very grateful to hear from them.

I will post something on the Webley pistol when I have had time to take a few pictures.

[micky2]

Hi l had a pistol very much like this one, which l put it down to being a home made one off but very well done and quite heavy. as l recall the pellet loading bit was slighty different it didn't have the nut holding the barrel in. pity l didn't take any photos of it before l sold it.

[ggggr]

Hi John --is one half of the frame part of the cylinder set up or is all the frame screwed to the underside of the cylinder.
Also, is that a screw for adjusting the trigger underneath the sear spring?
Looking at the gun from the point of view of ease of making and stripping (Because I am an untalented idiot with limited skills and tools), I like the nut holding the barrel as that seems a better idea than the peened over set up on gats. Also the nut for the probe seems a better idea than the normal set up. Do you think that bit is some sort of modified gas fitting?
It looks like the leaf spring is one out of a lock to me as well, which makes sense if you can find something to do the job.
The screw as a rearsight, I guess , gives some limited form of elevation adjustment?
I'd be interested what is in the cylinder, by way of sealing round the barrel. I am always amazed with gats that the air can be persuaded to go into the barrel through the transfer port without bypassing the barrel where it goes through to the bit of the gun that holds the mainspring.
I am waiting for the Webley pics

[ccdjg]

Hi Guy. Both sides of the frame come away leaving just a thin steel profile frame attached to the underside of the cylinder. I was wrong when I said that the gun had no welds as I have found that the profile frame has just one spot weld to the cylinder, just under the breech area. The other end of the profile frame is fixed to the cyllnder by the small bolt you can see. Why he didn't just use two welds I don't know.

Yes, that screw is for adjusting the tension on the sear spring - an odd refinement, especially as you have to take the frame side off to reach the screw. It makes me think even more that this as an experimental prototype.

The cylinder sealing method seems to be just the usual leather washer arrangement you get in gats.

Pics of the Webley here soon.

Cheers, John

[ccdjg]

I finally managed to get pictures sorted out for the customised Webley, the second of the “homemade “ air pistols. I acquired this oddity as part of another auction lot that I bid on, and it wasn’t something I particularly wanted. My original intention was to convert it back to original condition, but it turned out to be quite nicely done so I will be leaving it as it is. It is a post-war Webley Mark 1 with an extended barrel:







It was probably inspired by those customised long barrel Webley Seniors that appeared briefly on the market in the 1950’s. These were .22 and had an 11 and a quarter inch barrel, whereas this one is 0.177 with a 10 inch barrel. The barrel is nicely rifled and was most probably turned down from the barrel of a rifle. The modified cocking link has been well done with a short L-shaped steel section brazed under the barrel as the main pivot unit which connects at its rear end to the conventional Mark 1 cocking link.

The front sight blade is brazed into a slot in the barrel and is non-adjustable. It shoots much like a normal Mark 1 and I have not noticed any significant increase in accuracy, although my shooting skills are probably not good enough to judge this reliably.
I don’t know who made the modification, other than that there are the initials AJP stamped on the left hand side of the pivot bar. Does anybody have any idea who AJP might be?

[ggggr]

I finally managed to get pictures sorted out for the customised Webley, the second of the “homemade “ air pistols. I acquired this oddity as part of another auction lot that I bid on, and it wasn’t something I particularly wanted. My original intention was to convert it back to original condition, but it turned out to be quite nicely done so I will be leaving it as it is. It is a post-war Webley Mark 1 with an extended barrel:







It was probably inspired by those customised long barrel Webley Seniors that appeared briefly on the market in the 1950’s. These were .22 and had an 11 and a quarter inch barrel, whereas this one is 0.177 with a 10 inch barrel. The barrel is nicely rifled and was most probably turned down from the barrel of a rifle. The modified cocking link has been well done with a short L-shaped steel section brazed under the barrel as the main pivot unit which connects at its rear end to the conventional Mark 1 cocking link.

The front sight blade is brazed into a slot in the barrel and is non-adjustable. It shoots much like a normal Mark 1 and I have not noticed any significant increase in accuracy, although my shooting skills are probably not good enough to judge this reliably.
I don’t know who made the modification, other than that there are the initials AJP stamped on the left hand side of the pivot bar. Does anybody have any idea who AJP might be?

Hi John---That foresight looks like it is off a MK2 BSA Meteor. Just checking the length of one from the front to where the "Bsa" is stamped on the barrel is 10 inches, so it would not show on your barrel if it is a Meteor one as that bit would have been turned down to fit the breech block.

Do you have a long barreled Senior? I've never seen one. Did they have a modified linkage, as over 9 1/4 inches the barrel would hit the trigger guard?
In one of the old Arrgun worlds, somebody modifed a Premier and went for a long barrel, but it fouled on the trigger guard so they had to modify the linkage. I think Gerald Cardew turned it down from a Cadet barrel.

[Powderfinger]

AJP = A.J. Parker ?

[ccdjg]

AJP = A.J. Parker ?

Nice thought, but I would have thought the man himself was six foot under at the time of the Premier. I suppose AJP could be the initials of the company, which was still going at the time, and the modification was done in their workshops, but the professionalism of the workmanship doesn't seem to quite live up to that.

Guy, good point about the risk of the barrel fouling the trigger guard in extended barrel Seniors (and Premiers). Denis Hiller shows a long barrel D series Premier in his book, and the barrel seems to be short enough to get over this problem. He doesn't say anything about this gun, but I assume it is an amateur customisation as I have never heard of any long-barreled Premiers being advertised.

I am not sure how they solved this problem in the commercially produced long-barrel Seniors as I have never seen one on the flesh. Pictures of the Senior are hard to come by and this is the only one I have. That is something for you to do when you get fed up with your table goodies- get out your ruler and compasses and work out the trajectory of the barrel when it is cocked.





Does anyone own one of these rare Seniors? Apparently they contained a few other modifications and it would be nice to get some more pics and feedback on performance.

[ggggr]

Guy, good point about the risk of the barrel fouling the trigger guard in extended barrel Seniors (and Premiers). Denis Hiller shows a long barrel D series Premier in his book, and the barrel seems to be short enough to get over this problem. He doesn't say anything about this gun, but I assume it is an amateur customisation as I have never heard of any long-barreled Premiers being advertised.

I am not sure how they solved this problem in the commercially produced long-barrel Seniors as I have never seen one on the flesh. Pictures of the Senior are hard to come by and this is the only one I have. That is something for you to do when you get fed up with your table goodies- get out your ruler and compasses and work out the trajectory of the barrel when it is cocked.





Does anyone own one of these rare Seniors? Apparently they contained a few other modifications and it would be nice to get some more pics and feedback on performance.

Ruler and compasses? My maths are a bit rusty for all the angles and stuff as well ---------------However, looking at your pic, it looks like the barrel band is a little further back than a normal Senior, BUT the back of the long link comes to the same place. That would suggest to me that Webley would have fitted a Mk1 long link (which is shorter than a Senior one) to the Senior intermediate link. I guess that this would have kept the long link flatter until the Fulcrum kicked in and cocked the gun. This would have been done to allow a barrel longer than 9 1/4 inches, without fouling the trigger guard. I think (off the top of my head) Mk ones dimensions could have been used but that would have made the gun hard to cock.
I cannot see Webley making a different long link for a long barreled version as that would have confused the spares situation even more.

Maybe someone can put up that Premier article from AGW? I think it was called "how to turn a pig into your favourite pistol" --or something similar.

[1066]

I have a similar one - It's a Premier bought new in about the middle 60's for £9.19/6. I machined and fitted the longer barrel and made new grips in the middle 70's. I recently re-discovered this, along with a BSA Merlin underlever rifle, when I cleaned out my dads shed, they have been laying there for 40 years and unfortunately now in poor condition.


I can't really remember what the barrel started life as but at about the time I bought a job lot of Baikal junior break barrel rifles and fitted them with aperture sights for a scout troop, so could well be one of those, they were really very accurate for a cheap rifle.

[ccdjg]

A neater job than mine as you have kept the barrel bands. Your second pic certainly shows the problem Guy highlighted about barrel length and restricted cocking. I am still not clear how the commercial ones coped with an 11 inch barrel.

[ggggr]

A neater job than mine as you have kept the barrel bands. Your second pic certainly shows the problem Guy highlighted about barrel length and restricted cocking. I am still not clear how the commercial ones coped with an 11 inch barrel.

After our chat today John and re reading an old AGW article about a Premier with a long barrel (thanks to troubledshooter for emailling it to me )
I had a think about it. The AGW article had a modded Premier than Gerald Cardew had made the barrel for from a BSA Cadet. The barrel was 12 inches and fouled the trigger guard and he mentions that is why everyone else went for 10 inch barrels. He faffed about and put a spacer under the piston washer, therefore shortening the stroke a little. Too much and the cocking shoe would hit the holding flange of the piston when closing the barrel

I was thinking about it and the only simple way of fitting a barrel long than 9 3/4 --10 inches would be to use Mk1 barrel band spacing on the barrel and Mk1 linkages--------------Which would mean it would cock like a Mk1 one and the fulcrum would not come into play.
As these barrels were a none Webley aftermarket part (according to the pm you sent me) then it would have to be a straight swap with the Senior barrel otherwise they would have to mess with the piston and probably the linkages too.
Is there a chance that picture is a mock up/ non working example? maybe with the cocking shoe left out? A Senior linkage would look better and be a better seller than someone seeing a Mk 1 linkage and thinking "Sod that!"

OR Is that barrel pivot offset?

[ccdjg]

The original article appeared in Guns Review, March 1979 and was written by Dr Joe Gilbart , a much respected collector of air pistols and writer of the late 1900’s. The pistol under discussion belonged to another collector and Joe was describing it first hand. His photograph (below) was originally black and white and I colorized purely it out of interest.




His write up went as follows:

“The Webley pistol has a most unusual appearance and when I first saw it my reaction was “Good Heavens, a Webley Buntline! ……………………………………..I am sure you will see what I mean when you look at the illustration of this Webley “Senior” (Fig. 5). These very long barrels were not made by Webley & Scott, but by an independent firm who advertised in periodicals of the mid 1950’s as replacement barrels for the Webley Senior air pistol, reputedly to improve the accuracy and velocity. The barrel is very well made of steel , with a foresight brazed on the muzzle end. The hinge piece and the standard Webley cocking linkage are also brazed to the barrel. The fit and finish, including the blueing, are truly excellent. However, when we look inside the barrel, we find a surprising thing. The rifling is 13 groove, which is a true departure from the contemporary standard Webley seven groove rifling. The calibre is .22 and the barrel length is 11 and a quarter inches. ……………………………………………….. .”

He the goes on to say that the owner has made further modifications to the pistol by fitting thick walnut grips and adding a trigger adjusting screw.


Evidently these barrels were sold complete with cocking linkage and were interchangeable with the standard Webley Senior barrel without the requirement for any further modification of the pistol.

[njaw]

I recently picked up a couple of home-made air pistols. One is a gat-type that was obviously scratch built, and the other is a customised Webley Mark 1. I don’t usually look to collect this sort of thing (except for my own efforts) but sometimes you get them almost accidentally, sometimes they just intrigue you. Although I have no information about who made them, or when they were made, they do have some features of interest.

The push-barrel pistol is of very heavy and solid construction, all-steel except for a brass barrel liner and milled brass grip plates. All the components are closely machined and the frame is held together entirely by screws, with no rivets, spot welds or pins. It was clearly made by someone with excellent machining skills, but whoever it was wasn’t very hot on fancy looks.






Although it follows the typical gat design, the maker introduced some original features of his own, such as the unusual loading pin arrangement and the trigger/sear system. The gun also has an unusually long piston stroke for this type of pistol, so the intention was probably to produce something with a bit more oomph than the average push-barrel.




The gun has no markings, so no clue as to who could have made it, but as all the screws are BA it was almost certainly made in this country. From the patina on the frame, corrosion on the brass plates when received, and the general appearance of the internals when I took it apart I would say that it was made more than 50 years ago, perhaps immediate pre-war or post war.

I know it’s fanciful speculation, but I can’t help feeling there is a connection between this and the first Harrington Gats from before the war. I have had a close look at one of these Harringtons, which have some key differences to their later post-war versions. The Harrington uses two fixing screws and these also have BA threads. You can see a loose similarity between the trigger mechanisms of the two pistols (the Harrington is on the right):




Maybe this pistol was Harrington’s first prototype when he started to explore the possibility of making his own push-barrel pistol? Wishful thinking I know, but who knows? It was definitely made to be easily taken apart. It seems that a few Bussey prototype pistols and at least one Lincoln Jeffries prototype pistol have found their way onto the collecting scene and were never scrapped. Why not a Harrington prototype? If anybody knowns anything about this pistol I would be very grateful to hear from them.

I will post something on the Webley pistol when I have had time to take a few pictures.

I have a soft spot for pop out pistols. That is a lovely example. I wish something like that came my way accidentally 😀

[johnbaz]

Here's another pistol that looks home made to me, It's similar to an Abas Major but much lower quality, I thought someone had possibly made one loosely around the Abas, The owner thinks it may be a prototype!!




Anyone have any ideas?


John