PH .451 3 band rifle

[JB101]

Hi all
I am looking at one of the above PH volunteer 3 band rifle in .451 & am looking for information as i have not had one of these before.

The serial No is H7XX,which from what research i've done indicates that its 'Henry' rifled.

What is the difference between the different types of rifling these come in and what is the recommended bullet(s) for these (pure lead or hardened a bit).
Can they be used straight out of the mould or is resizing a definite requirement.
Also what grade BP recommendations and initial loads .

I'll probably be starting off at 1-200yds and going out to 600 once I gain confidence in the rifle.

Regards
James

[thibben]

JB101

Those that I have seen are very (or can be) very accurate rifles.

The bullet is 'it' with all BP (ML & BPCR) rifles. Pure lead or pretty soft alloy (say 30:1 lead/tin) Get the right mold and pretty much straight from the mold - after lubing.

Over powder wad either from gasket material or HDPE .060" thick is a good start.

Pick a starting point re. powder and work up - Swiss powders are very good their version of 2F (#3) wqould be my suggestion

Here is a link to some similar work on same cal. http://blog.davide-pedersoli.com/dev...i-gibbs-rifle/

T

[tacfoley]

THE definitive 'how-to' for this rifle, and indeed ANY Enfield, real or continuation version, can be found on the research Press site, where David Minshall, UK many-times Champion muzzleloading shooter with this and other similar rifles, has produced 'Shooting the Enfield'.

I also urge you, if you you care not already a member, to join the MLAGB.

Your rifle is among the VERY early examples of this fine model, and it would be well worth while to cherish it a bit - there are no more - the Pedersoli version is a poor thing by comparison, as are any of the Euroarms examples made after serial number 14000 or so.

It would also be worthwhile to replace the PH Beryllium nipple with a Peter Dyson platinum-lined version. A couple of hundred shots with the recommended 80 - 90gr of FFg Swiss will see you the owner of a self-cocking' percussion rifle, as the hole wears through and sends a deal of the propellant gas back out that way. I shot mine for almost thirty years with the same Dyson nipple.

This is a quote from a many-times NMLRA-winner - If you cast the 457121 from pure lead they usually drop about .455" from the mold ( I have two). Fill the grooves with lube then push them nose first into a .454" die then again .452" etc. The grooves wont deform and close up when full of lube and when made from pure lead. I have done this many times because I really like that bullet's performance accuracy wise. It's always easier to start with a proper diameter mold. I have the Lyman 451114 Volunteer mold but have had better results with the 457121 in both original PH rifles and Euro Arms Whitworth and Volunteer versions.

[JB101]

Hi Chaps

Thanks for the info so far,I'm still a bit hazy' about the molds and sizing of the resultant cast bullets .
From what I have read one should go for a bullet 1 thou under bore size so for example a Lyman 451114 should produce a bullet of nominal dia 452/1 so then it should be sized down to 450?

Regards
James

[tacfoley]

Hi Chaps

Thanks for the info so far,I'm still a bit hazy' about the molds and sizing of the resultant cast bullets .
From what I have read one should go for a bullet 1 thou under bore size so for example a Lyman 451114 should produce a bullet of nominal dia 452/1 so then it should be sized down to 450?

Regards
James

When I bought MY three-band Enfield Volunteer match rifle, it came with the Lyman mould, AND a sizing die that used a hammer strike to push the bullet through and make it .450" calibre. When you shoot the bullet, it upsets into the rifling. You can buy bullets ready-cast and sized and lubed from Henry Krank, if you don't care to cast your own.

[JB101]

Hi Tac
Thanks for the info,the rifle is pre owned and I am not sure if any molds or wad punches are (still) with it ,I am presuming not hence the questions about the best mold(s) to get.
I'll cast my own as I used to have a couple of BPCR's and used to cast for those as well as a pedersoli Le Page which I still have.

I'm also possibly looking at a Ruger Old Army 44 cal ,is there anything to look out for in these ?

Regards
James

[tacfoley]

Hi Tac - Thanks for the info,the rifle is pre owned and I am not sure if any molds or wad punches are (still) with it ,I am presuming not hence the questions about the best mold(s) to get.
I'll cast my own as I used to have a couple of BPCR's and used to cast for those as well as a pedersoli Le Page which I still have.

I'm also possibly looking at a Ruger Old Army 44 cal ,is there anything to look out for in these ?

Regards
James

Well, about a thousand posts here concerning the ROA. I'll list the things about them that might help you make up your mind...

1. Production stopped in 2008. They came in 7.5" bbl and ca.5" , blued and s/s.

2. There are NO spares from the factory apart from a couple of screws that are common to Ruger's other single-action revolvers - the Blackhawk and Super Blackhawk.

3. there is a company here in UK that makes a fine replacement copy of the cylinder base pin for around £35. I suggest that you get on to E*** and buy one toot sweet if you get an ROA. They are not fragile - the whole thing is built like a tank - but forgetting to turn the locking screw might mean that instead of pushing the ball into the chamber, you bend the base-pin instead.

4. Nipples here in UK are the most ludicrous price imaginable - I get them for about the 1/3 the price when I'm back over in USA and sell them to people here - about forty sets, so far.

5. I've seen them priced from around £400 right up to a £1000. It pays to ask around - my LGS currently has two, at least last time I looked.

I figured that your rifle, made as it was around 1985-7, was not new. As for a wad punch for the .451 - Henry Krank does one. The best material for a wad depends on your choice of two materials - greased felt or one-side-shiny cardboard. The latter is the stuff you find inside the collar of a new shirt, for those who can afford a new shirt. THE most important thing about loading it is consistency - of pressure on loading the bullet down, and on the cleanth of the bore after doing so. Take a look at capandball, or better still, my pal Rob on britishmuzzleloaders - he is THE man for this and many other Victorian and earlier infantry arms - in uniform, too.

Lastly - be VERY careful when selecting your ROA, although totally identical in every way, the calibre designation changed a number of years back for reasons beyond my comprehension. Earlier models, like mine form 1986, were classed as .44cal, later ones as .45cal - make sure what you are buying because your FAC may have the wrong calibre on it. In spite of all that farting about, they are BOTH the same calibre and use the same .457cal ball made in a dedicated Lee mould.

[JB101]

Hi Tac
Thanks for the summary on the ROA , I was aware of the calibre issue on these and the one I am looking at has 44 cal marked under the ramrod.
I’ll keep doing some more research on the 451 rifle as well👍

Regards
James

[tacfoley]

Hi Tac
Thanks for the summary on the ROA , I was aware of the calibre issue on these and the one I am looking at has 44 cal marked under the ramrod.
I’ll keep doing some more research on the 451 rifle as well👍

Regards
James

The two-band rifle is more accurate, as the barrel is not just shorter, but also thicker in diameter and therefore more rigid.

[svincett]

I've got a ph .451 volunteer rifle , serial no # 670 , it came with the bullet mold & wad punch

Hopefully using it this Saturday when our range reopens

I use 60gns of Swiss no2 powder

Cheers Steve

[tacfoley]

I've got a ph .451 volunteer rifle , serial no # 670 , it came with the bullet mold & wad punch

Hopefully using it this Saturday when our range reopens

I use 60gns of Swiss no2 powder

Cheers Steve

Can you tell me if it has an H for Henry rifling in front of the serial number?

[svincett]

Can you tell me if it has an H for Henry rifling in front of the serial number?

sorry my mistake, it's a 2 band ph451

I'll have a look when I get a chance, it's at back of the cabinet as its been on a 4 month holiday

It's pretty accurate at 100 yards !

I use a 520 grain lead bullet

Cheers Steve

[svincett]

Can you tell me if it has an H for Henry rifling in front of the serial number?

No h before the 670

And it's a 2 band not 3, sorry

[tacfoley]

No h before the 670

And it's a 2 band not 3, sorry

Thanks, I'll be notifying the P-H maven - David Minshall, so that he can add it to his reference list.