BSA underlever Air Rifle built circa 1913-1914 with unique trigger type safety.

[Powderfinger]

Maybe a Tommy saw a Doughboy firing a 1911 pistol and thought the grip safety was a useful concept. When he got back to Blighty he asked his local gunsmith to make one for his LJ BSA or he made it in his workplace as an apprentice piece or a foreigner.

[TipRoadRat]

Hi All,
Yes I was wrong the safety trigger is not a pressing. But the rifle to me still could have been an experiment done at the BSA factory. I will have to ask my relative if he will let me clean up the rifle a bit more, so I can read the patent numbers. But I'm not going to ask him to let me strip the rifle down at all.
This isn't going to happen soon as I've already spent time and money on fuel to visit my relative.
TipRoadRat.

[micky2]

A very interesting thread, thanks for sharing.

If you look at the underside view of the safety trigger it looks solid, not pressed, so relatively easy for someone to machine.

The wings on the trigger guard are seamlessly welded, a very nice job.

It seems a very elaborate and well made modification for someone to undertake simply to overcome a worn sear and subsequently light trigger, especially when spare parts have always been readily available.

If you could somehow prove it was actually made by BSA it would be worth a lot of money, otherwise I'm sure it would still be of value to a BSA collector.

The patent numbers on the cocking arm are the normal BSA patents.

Cheers,

Matt

That is the thing is nobody will be able to prove that it was made by BSA, which l don't think it was. there are a few very good engineers out there, we have a few of them on here . that are trying to come up with ways of improving guns with different concepts and also making them from just blueprints and ldears in their heads. and l believe that this was one of them. made by someone who was trying something different that suited them. l have or had a few of them home made guns. they intring me has to how they came up with the ldear in the first place.

[Josie & John]

Not much I can add to this quest for information as I have not come across a similar device or patent relating to it before.

One possible avenue of research is the excellent series on airgun related patents that ran in Guns Review during the late 1970s, if anyone has the series to hand. That's assuming it was ever patented of course.

Kind regards,

John M

[4end]

I cannot remember seeing an early BSA with a safety catch. I have just bought a 1913 S66625 improved model D Light pattern. NO safety unfortunately.

I didnt think any BSA would bring £6k, not even a military.

It is interesting seeing the various valuations put forward on this rifle. I have a 1908 BSA Mod D .25 calibre in fair condition that I have no idea of its value. Perhaps the knowledgeable members could advise as to roughly what I could get should I decide to dispose of it. I do know that John Knibbs had one in his shop for £4000 but whether he got that much for it I have no idea.

[Josie & John]

It is interesting seeing the various valuations put forward on this rifle. I have a 1908 BSA Mod D .25 calibre in fair condition that I have no idea of its value. Perhaps the knowledgeable members could advise as to roughly what I could get should I decide to dispose of it. I do know that John Knibbs had one in his shop for £4000 but whether he got that much for it I have no idea.

Virtually impossible to value from the description you have given as condition is everything.

We would really need to see some clear images of the rifle to estimate a value.

From memory, I have a recollection of a long standing member offering a .25 BSA for £2000 or £2500 several years ago but no idea if it sold.

I remember the Knibbs .25 and was told they like seeing it in the shop and had no real desire to sell....unless someone was mad enough to pay the £4k!

John

[micky2]

It is interesting seeing the various valuations put forward on this rifle. I have a 1908 BSA Mod D .25 calibre in fair condition that I have no idea of its value. Perhaps the knowledgeable members could advise as to roughly what I could get should I decide to dispose of it. I do know that John Knibbs had one in his shop for £4000 but whether he got that much for it I have no idea.

He had it for years, l don't know if he still has it. l sold mine for £1250 at Kempton in 2018 if that helps.

[walnutfarmmick]

I think Danny Wing has been dead for more than ten years now! I've lived in the village most of my life where the gun shop was.
I think he collected BSAs and Doncaster made firearm pistols . Danny was always top dollar for selling and but not give much at all for purchases, so he must have wanted that gun for his collection

Nice bloke if a little eccentric . How he repaired guns with one arm and his claw I could never work out but he always managed with a fag in his mouth whilst holding the gun across his metal arm.

Walnut farm Mick on here was a good friend of his, and lived literally across the road from the shop, I am sure he will be along soon. Danny's gunshop was the first place in the late 70's that I ever saw the now well known sign saying "when guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns" This was in a time when all farmers shotguns were still stored behind the kitchen door, and you could own a real .45 or 9mm pistol. How right he was.

Am I so predictable, Dean? Apparently!

I was all fired up to spring to Danny's defence when I saw Tiprat's post. And then he didn't say anything objectionable! I know he's a relative newcomer but hasn't he grasped how this forum works yet? Must try harder. I'm proud to have called Danny my good friend and he was an even better neighbour. And an even better businessman. I pinched my tagline regarding outlaws and guns from a bumper sticker his mum brought back from the USA in about 1970 - it was true then and has truer every year since. Sorry about the redundancy there. I deplore sloppy English and know true is an absolute so cannot be a comparative but think it is justified. You can be sure that if Danny bid £150 it'd have been worth nearer 3 times that, just in case. Having said that it was very rare money changed hands between us. I think that suited both of us.

When I started writing this I thought I had a point to make but whatever it was escapes me now. I'll read the relevant posts again and see if it comes back to me. The memories of Dan it provoked were good as gold. All the stories were true, and if they weren't they should have been.

ATB, Mick

[edbear2]

That is the thing is nobody will be able to prove that it was made by BSA, which l don't think it was. there are a few very good engineers out there, we have a few of them on here . that are trying to come up with ways of improving guns with different concepts and also making them from just blueprints and ldears in their heads. and l believe that this was one of them. made by someone who was trying something different that suited them. l have or had a few of them home made guns. they intring me has to how they came up with the ldear in the first place.

On that Milpat I had, where someone had made a fake 2 stage trigger, it was never found out why and where the work had been done. John Knibbs thought maybe at the Guards to further replicate the Lee Enfield in terms of training as he had not seen / heard of another from BSA.

Funny enough I did contact them with a letter / photos / and explanation of training at the time, never even got a reply, as in the scheme of things it is of very minor interest I suppose, unless the letter found an air rifle fan at the museum!


https://www.flickr.com/photos/312284...7627403551588/


ATB, Ed

[Shed tuner]

what a very clever and well engineered solution. whether it's needed, or commercially viable, or original, who knows ? But really interesting - thanks for sharing.

[DEAN C.]

Am I so predictable, Dean? Apparently!

I was all fired up to spring to Danny's defence when I saw Tiprat's post. And then he didn't say anything objectionable! I know he's a relative newcomer but hasn't he grasped how this forum works yet? Must try harder. I'm proud to have called Danny my good friend and he was an even better neighbour. And an even better businessman. I pinched my tagline regarding outlaws and guns from a bumper sticker his mum brought back from the USA in about 1970 - it was true then and has truer every year since. Sorry about the redundancy there. I deplore sloppy English and know true is an absolute so cannot be a comparative but think it is justified. You can be sure that if Danny bid £150 it'd have been worth nearer 3 times that, just in case. Having said that it was very rare money changed hands between us. I think that suited both of us.

When I started writing this I thought I had a point to make but whatever it was escapes me now. I'll read the relevant posts again and see if it comes back to me. The memories of Dan it provoked were good as gold. All the stories were true, and if they weren't they should have been.

ATB, Mick

Danny was an unforgettable character to anyone that knew him. His mischievous grin will stay in my memory for a long time.
He always knew far more than he ever let on about most subjects, and the stories about him and his adventures were amazing if they were all true.
Look after yourself Mick,
Dean.

[TipRoadRat]

Hi,
I hope these photos work, I've attached them as plain text.
Anyway I've had my last look at the rifle, and it does seem to me that the safety mechanism was not done on a production line. There is evidence that a metal file was used rather than machining, and the two 'extensions' that serve to 'block' the trigger are held on by screws. But they haven't come loose in over 100 years.
Anyway, if you look at photo Two you will see that the face of the trigger is not a smooth curve has you would expect from a production rifle. The bump in the middle of the trigger front surface is due to a screw holding the 'safety extension'.
There is other evidence of filing, but it's hard to see with my eyes and with the rifle being somewhat rusty.
I cleaned up the PAT. numbers on the cocking lever and just above the serial number on the trigger block. But I think they are normal BSA patents anyway.
The only thing that puzzles me is that there is no evidence of a BSA logo etc on the top of the air chamber, has I have seen on other photos of this model of rifle. I cleaned up that area with steel wool and oil and got down to blueing, but stopped going further because I was afraid of going too far.
The owner says he has owned the rifle for about 55 years and was given it by a next door neighbour who was moving on. He said the neighbour probably had the rifle a considerable number of years also. And, that he doubted that that man did the safety mod because he didn't have the facilities.

[Abasmajor]

The only thing that puzzles me is that there is no evidence of a BSA logo etc on the top of the air chamber, has I have seen on other photos of this model of rifle. I cleaned up that area with steel wool and oil and got down to blueing, but stopped going further because I was afraid of going too far.

I believe the very late Improved Mod D cylinder markings were etched rather than stamped which would probably have disappeared years ago. The etched markings became standard on all post WW1 BSA air rifles.

Brian

[Garvin]

I believe the very late Improved Mod D cylinder markings were etched rather than stamped which would probably have disappeared years ago. The etched markings became standard on all post WW1 BSA air rifles.

Brian

That's true Brian and the etching came in after about 78xxx, whereas this rifle has a 74xxx serial number. I'm afraid this suggests the rifle is a 'bitsa', meaning the trigger block is earlier than (ie. not original to) the cylinder, unless the original roll stamping has worn away altogether or been sanded smooth, which does happen occasionally.

[TipRoadRat]

That's true Brian and the etching came in after about 78xxx, whereas this rifle has a 74xxx serial number. I'm afraid this suggests the rifle is a 'bitsa', meaning the trigger block is earlier than (ie. not original to) the cylinder, unless the original roll stamping has worn away altogether or been sanded smooth, which does happen occasionally.

Hi,
Although I can't be sure about the etching, I do believe that the blueing is still intact where the etching should be. I have no photo to show of that area and do not intend to visit my relative again for that purpose. I believe I am probably getting to be a bit of a nuisance to him.
A lot of of 'unusual' things happen in factories. like my Airsporter MK1 was found 'stuck in a corner' at the BSA factory by a Doncaster gun dealer named Bob Presley. He owned Northern Arms down Copley Road. That was well over 20 years after it had been manufactured. Danny Wing put a new piston seal in it, or 'washer' has we used to call them.
Also I believe that the rifle has never had any problems because of it's sear mechanism, all the time my relative has had it. Only had a new mainspring that was made by a metalwork teacher and fitted by him. The 'chewed up' screws on the rifle are what has happened over time. Not everybody has got Brownell gunsmiths screwdrivers.
TipRoadRat.