Reply With QuoteThis is important and exciting news. Especially if you’ve been revising it in alphabetical order !particularly as I am currently re-writing my air pistol book and I have recently started on the Walther LP53 section.
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Originally Posted by ccdjg
Thank you for a very courteous response. Let me try to justify my assertion : Firstly , I have no impeccable source, just my own empirical evidence :
1 The weight of it.
2 The colour of the oxidised surface.
3 The smell of the abraded metal.
4 It's brittleness and tendency to fracture with age : Cracks may often be observed at the poorly webbed and cantilevered cocking link pivot ; also occasionally around the muzzle . The liner is steel and either cast or pressed in . Just the presence of this ferrous part would militate against successful anodising even if the outer was ally.
5 The fact that cold blue will colour it. Cold blue for steel is completely ineffective on aluminium.
That's it for now before this times out.
Oh, and much of the Crosman range successfully used Mazak ( or Zamak in Yankspeak). It does tend to break though ! Scientific testing sounds like a good way forward
Last edited by Farsight; 12-04-2022 at 05:06 PM.
professional hookaduck ringer
This is important and exciting news. Especially if you’ve been revising it in alphabetical order !particularly as I am currently re-writing my air pistol book and I have recently started on the Walther LP53 section.
Morally flawed
Airgun Alchemist, Collector and Scribe
I don't want to sidetrack this very useful thread, but yes, I am tackling the re-write in alphabetical order and progress has been pretty good, but that is only Section 1 so far. My main problem is deciding what to leave out, as there has been a surprising amount of new stuff accumulating over the last 13 years.
Cheers,
John
Registered User
There seems to have been a divergence on that thread between the Lp3/LP53 pistols.
The LP53 has a painted barrel, the barrel on the SSP LP3 looks blued but is an alloy, and I’m pretty sure it’s aluminium as it doesn’t take Birchwood Casey cold blue. Not sure if there are any other tests.
Think I’ll go down the anodising route.
Cheers,
Matt
professional hookaduck ringer
I await results with great interest, as I too have an lp3 and an lp2 with disappointingly greying barrels (much like my hair)
Morally flawed
Airgun Alchemist, Collector and Scribe
I have never heard of an LP53 with a painted barrel before, so is this something you have personally come across and if so, do you think it was original to the gun?
Cheers
John
Registered User
What about a smooth Cerakote for the Walther?
professional hookaduck ringer
Im afraid I’d only want to replicate the original finish.
Morally flawed
Registered User
My two cents, FWIW.
In the making of my Walther LP53K, I had the opportunity to machine the barrel shroud on the lathe.
The material removed formed long curls, typical of cutting aluminum or aluminum alloy. Zinc alloys on the other hand, being more brittle, tend to break up into short chips.
The original finishes on the Walther barrel shrouds are definitely not paint, but are some form of anodizing.
The differences in appearance of the barrel shrouds can be attributed to the finish applied to the alloy prior to anodizing, in much the same way as with blued steel.
If the alloy is highly polished prior to anodizing, the resulting finish will be a high lustre black finish. If the alloy is bead blasted, the resulting finish will be a satin black finish.
As for the tendency for the LP53 barrel shroud to crack at the web where the cocking link attaches, this would not be out of the ordinary for aluminum alloy that has become "work hardened" through over zealous cocking.
I have used the Birchwood Casey Aluma Black on both aluminum alloy and on zinc alloy, and my results have been that the stuff does not work very well on a highly polished surface, looking patchy, and tending to flake off with very little handling.
On the other hand, on a bead blasted surface, the Aluma Black produces a deep dark, and uniform color, that stands up quite well to handling.
The couple times that I had to refinish an LP53 barrel shroud, I opted for a good quality paint, and it has stood up well.
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You could say that about your hair as wellldgrin
Registered User
A quick search online and it seems many LP53 barrels were painted by owners wishing to renovate them so there are probably a lot of repainted examples in circulation.
I assumed my one was painted because it had flaked away on the muzzle where the cocking aid fits over. I used some touch up paint to fix that.
Looking at it now the original finish has barely any thickness to it, a fingernail doesn't catch it on a worn area under the breech, and it is very flat. The substrate alloy doesn't seem to have any finish to it.
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I know even a good respray with a spray gun and a thinned polyurathane 2K paint would have some thickness to it, and to get it flat with no texture you have to put a fair bit on.
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I don't know enough about metal finishes to know the difference to be honest, but I assumed it was paint.
Interesting stuff.
Cheers,
Matt
Hi John, most breakers yards have sprectrum guns that do readouts, I am sure you could get a barrel tested for the price of a beer if you found a helpful one. The one I used to use in Hereford for our works scrap a few years ago gave a printed readout even.
As you will know all Aluminium contains some zinc, even "commercial pure" 1100 grade has 0.1 allowable max (trace).
As the strengths and series numbers rise, then various metals / elements are alloyed in to give various characteristics, with the highest Zinc content I am aware of being circa 10% in a couple of the 7000 series aerospace ones, wheras most of the 7000 series (usually non weldable tough grades for structures and parts etc.) are around 3 - 5% or so.
If anyone had a scrap or damaged barrel another simple test is to use a TIG welder on a low setting and you will get a green arc and instant indication of a high Zinc content, not so scientific as "zapping" though
When I had one I always assumed it was a fairly high Zinc based aluminium alloy from the look, colour and weight and paid it no thought really at the time as Zinc is used to make more precise shapes /flow etc.
There are actually 4 different zincs used (ASTM's ag40b/ac41a/ag40a/ac43a) in die casting as well...It's a can of worms hence why so much more easy these days where testers are everywhere.
ATB, ED
Last edited by edbear2; 14-04-2022 at 09:21 AM.
professional hookaduck ringer
I never cease to be amazed at the knowledge on this forum, thanks Ed.Hi John, most breakers yards have sprectrum guns that do readouts, I am sure you could get a barrel tested for the price of a beer if you found a helpful one. The one I used to use in Hereford for our works scrap a few years ago gave a printed readout even.
As you will know all Aluminium contains some zinc, even "commercial pure" 1100 grade has 0.1 allowable max (trace).
As the strengths and series numbers rise, then various metels are alloyed in to give various characteristics, with the highest Zinc content I am aware of being circa 10% in a couple of the 7000 series aerospace, wheras most of the 7000 series (usually non weldable tough grades for structures and parts etc.) are around 3 - 5% or so.
If anyone had a scrap or damaged barrel another simple test is to use a TIG welder on a low setting and you will get a green arc and instant indication of a high Zinc content, not so scientific as "zapping" though
When I had one I always assumed it was a fairly high Zinc based aluminium alloy from the look, colour and weight and paid it no thought really at the time as Zinc is used to make more precise shapes /flow etc.
There are actually 4 different zincs used (ASTM's ag40b/ac41a/ag40a/ac43a) in die casting as well...It's a can of worms hence why so much more easy these days where testers are everywhere.
ATB, ED
Morally flawed
It can be stressful though if it is stuff that goes fast or flies
But also a reason I stay clear of welded repairs inside guns etc. as usually you have no idea what you are dealing with, and like that recent Webley service sear thread, even the original drawing is no help as a defunct spec / company / internal code is often used.
I could do an eductated guess, but that's all it would be, and years down the line someone may suffer...
ATB, Ed
Airgun Alchemist, Collector and Scribe
Many thanks for your very knowledgeable input, which gave me much food for thought. It prompted me to have a look at what Wikipedia says, and apparently there are 8 types of aluminium alloy and only group 7 contains any zinc. Within this group (called the 7000 series) the zinc content averages about 8% and is never more than 11%, so this means that if the LP53 alloy is aluminium based , it should be easy to detect which is the dominant metal by chemical means. On the other hand, zinc alloys containing aluminium can contain up to 25% aluminium, so it would be bit more difficult to sort out the dominant metal chemically.
It seems to me that the best way of sorting this question out is to actually try anodising and blacking a sample barrel. If it is an aluminium alloy, the 8-11% zinc will not interfere much with the anodising process and so a good black finish should be achievable. On the other hand, if it is a zinc alloy with only 25% or less aluminium, there will be virtually no colour take-up , as zinc does not anodise.
As the Walther black finish has all the characteristics of an anodised coating, this almost answers the question, but the proof of the pudding is still in the eating. If Matt goes ahead with an anodising experiment on his barrel and gets a positive result, then this will not only answer the question, but will give collectors a way of restoring their faded barrels with a genuine Walther-type finish.
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