Non military pattern full stocked BSA

[trajectory]

Has anyone seen & or shot a full stocked BSA underlever, not a Military pattern but a contemporary conversion a bit like a model 50 but on a 1920s or 30s Standard or CS? One that has been really well done, & how was the forend fixed to the barrel or was it fully floating.
If you have seen one or indeed have one what did you think of it & if you fired it do you think it was an improvement or not.
Additionally has anyone heard of a company or gunsmith who offered this conversion as an option way back then?

[Garvin]

Has anyone seen & or shot a full stocked BSA underlever, not a Military pattern but a contemporary conversion a bit like a model 50 but on a 1920s or 30s Standard or CS? One that has been really well done, & how was the forend fixed to the barrel or was it fully floating.
If you have seen one or indeed have one what did you think of it & if you fired it do you think it was an improvement or not.
Additionally has anyone heard of a company or gunsmith who offered this conversion as an option way back then?

There was this one. The seller claimed it was a BSA original.

https://forum.vintageairgunsgallery....uns/#post-4646

Lawrie made this and fixed the forend with magnets.

https://forum.vintageairgunsgallery....uns/#post-1361

This is a homemade stutzen:

https://forum.vintageairgunsgallery....uns/#post-5266

John M owns/owned this one:

https://forum.vintageairgunsgallery....uns/#post-1356

[Josie & John]

John M owns/owned this one:

https://forum.vintageairgunsgallery....uns/#post-1356

I still do Danny and intend to be buried with it - my favourite BSA!

John

[Binners]

Here are a couple of Lee Enfield stocked air rifles. One has an Airsporter inside, the other a 10 shot PCP.

[trajectory]

.......theres some interesting things out there floating about, whether prototypes, varriations made by enthusiasts, amateur or professional. Fiddling with things comes naturally to some, those that have an idea, a desire or just wonder 'what if' & assuming they have the skills, tools, & time some of the results can be spectacular & thought provoking & get you wondering about a project or two if your own. Not necessarily copies of others but inspired by them or the results of others work.

Interesting stuff, well I reckon so.

[edbear2]

.......theres some interesting things out there floating about, whether prototypes, varriations made by enthusiasts, amateur or professional. Fiddling with things comes naturally to some, those that have an idea, a desire or just wonder 'what if' & assuming they have the skills, tools, & time some of the results can be spectacular & thought provoking & get you wondering about a project or two if your own. Not necessarily copies of others but inspired by them or the results of others work.

Interesting stuff, well I reckon so.

I had a Milpat a few years back that was engraved /stamped for the irish guards, it was stamped "2" so you can only guess /assume it was one of a batch of at least two guns (again assuming all the stampings and markings were genuine) supplied to that regiment.

So somewhere out there (possibly) is another / others from that batch.

It had a unique fake two stage trigger, very well made and John Knibbs was of the opinion it was probably an in house mod by a guards armourer, a simple job for that type of person, rather than a factory mod, but even he, after a lifetime of examining BSA parts close up could not be 100% sure, maybe the Guards had asked for a trigger more like the service rifle and BSA had made some, who knows?

Its just annoying you have to guess this stuff sometimes as no-one wrote it down!

https://www.flickr.com/photos/312284...7627403551588/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/312284...th/6030239906/

ATB, ED

[trajectory]

I had a Milpat a few years back that was engraved /stamped for the irish guards, it was stamped "2" so you can only guess /assume it was one of a batch of at least two guns (again assuming all the stampings and markings were genuine) supplied to that regiment.

So somewhere out there (possibly) is another / others from that batch.

It had a unique fake two stage trigger, very well made and John Knibbs was of the opinion it was probably an in house mod by a guards armourer, a simple job for that type of person, rather than a factory mod, but even he, after a lifetime of examining BSA parts close up could not be 100% sure, maybe the Guards had asked for a trigger more like the service rifle and BSA had made some, who knows?

Its just annoying you have to guess this stuff sometimes as no-one wrote it down!

https://www.flickr.com/photos/312284...7627403551588/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/312284...th/6030239906/

ATB, ED

As you say, it gives the impression that more than one was made. Armourers may well have have had a request to make some mods either as a direct request or suggested it as an improvement when it came in for service, it's feasible. A two stage trigger might well have been a good option on a training rifle & I can see the logic in it. But I entirely agree with you that it's annoying that these things were sometimes never documented so that anyone coming along later knew what was what. Just wonder how many of us tinkerers document what we get up to & superglue it to our projects.

My original question arose because of a conversation a few years ago & messing around with a BSA recently it reminded me.. got the impression he knew somewhere that had been doing full length stocks for BSA air rifles. Whether a hobbyist or if someone had made one & got a copy lathe or something & was trying it semi commercially I have no idea. He was a bit vague as it was going back to pre war years.

I can imagine it a couple of ways. People seeing the military pattern rifile & thinking ' I wouldn't mind one a bit like that' & carving one out for them selves or even someone wondering if they could undercut the price of a BSA military pattern to fill a gap in the market with a bit of a look alike. Who knows?

Maybe it's all hoo ha & the facts lost in time, & someone just re purposed the legs off an old dining room table

[edbear2]

As you say, it gives the impression that more than one was made. Armourers may well have have had a request to make some mods either as a direct request or suggested it as an improvement when it came in for service, it's feasible. A two stage trigger might well have been a good option on a training rifle & I can see the logic in it. But I entirely agree with you that it's annoying that these things were sometimes never documented so that anyone coming along later knew what was what. Just wonder how many of us tinkerers document what we get up to & superglue it to our projects.

My original question arose because of a conversation a few years ago & messing around with a BSA recently it reminded me.. got the impression he knew somewhere that had been doing full length stocks for BSA air rifles. Whether a hobbyist or if someone had made one & got a copy lathe or something & was trying it semi commercially I have no idea. He was a bit vague as it was going back to pre war years.

I can imagine it a couple of ways. People seeing the military pattern rifile & thinking ' I wouldn't mind one a bit like that' & carving one out for them selves or even someone wondering if they could undercut the price of a BSA military pattern to fill a gap in the market with a bit of a look alike. Who knows?

Maybe it's all hoo ha & the facts lost in time, & someone just re purposed the legs off an old dining room table

I am sure (but may be wrong) that John's gun as per the links put above by Danny in post number 2 was made by a metalwork teacher, and he did more than one, I don't know when this was so may have been the source of the story you heard.

As I said it's been years since I held that gun and spoke to John, so may have that totally wrong, maybe he will see this and correct me hopefully.

ATB, Ed

[45flint]

Don’t you find it surprising that prewar BSA never did a non- military full stock? The German companies took the BSA design and did just that and made it into what looked like a new rifle. Now as a collector I feel that classic BSA design is on a level all its own. There is a beauty and grace that to me exceeds the full stock underlever taps. But at the time I would think that shooters would have been looking for a “normal” full stock rifle. Even prewar Webley didn’t give it to them. Maybe in the English mind had been conditioned not to expect a full stock on a air rifle.

[Josie & John]

I am sure (but may be wrong) that John's gun as per the links put above by Danny in post number 2 was made by a metalwork teacher, and he did more than one, I don't know when this was so may have been the source of the story you heard.

As I said it's been years since I held that gun and spoke to John, so may have that totally wrong, maybe he will see this and correct me hopefully.

ATB, Ed

Your memory is spot on Ed.

From what I was told, 6 models were converted in the 1970s including a No 4 or maybe more than one No 4. I don't know what happened to the others but wish my metalwork teachers had a similar interest back in the 1970s.

John

[trajectory]

edbear2, you might be right, maybe that's where the information stemmed from.

45flint, not sure that I'd call it 'a beauty & grace' that these old BSA's are endowed with, more a simplicity of design to meet functionality. What was it someone said about the Webley Service revolver, think they called it 'old ugly' but there's little arguing that it worked very effectively. For me these old air rifles fall into that category. Undeniably they work, & work pretty well; but I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Josie and John, metalwork teachers, ours was pretty good but when you were asked what you wanted to make you had to be clear & quick or else you were co opted into the team to make a part for his pet project. A steam locomotive. We were really lucky with the kit we had, it was better than some light engineering works I've been in.

cheers all, interesting info coming to light, thanks,

[45flint]

edbear2, you might be right, maybe that's where the information stemmed from.

45flint, not sure that I'd call it 'a beauty & grace' that these old BSA's are endowed with, more a simplicity of design to meet functionality. What was it someone said about the Webley Service revolver, think they called it 'old ugly' but there's little arguing that it worked very effectively. For me these old air rifles fall into that category. Undeniably they work, & work pretty well; but I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Josie and John, metalwork teachers, ours was pretty good but when you were asked what you wanted to make you had to be clear & quick or else you were co opted into the team to make a part for his pet project. A steam locomotive. We were really lucky with the kit we had, it was better than some light engineering works I've been in.

cheers all, interesting info coming to light, thanks,

Funny I think that you take the BSA for granted because its the norm over there. I can remember first seeing it at a airgun show over here in the US when I first started collecting 6 years ago and I thought it was so awesome. Nothing like it over here, and to me that pistol grip stock and its simple flowing lines are just a thing of beauty.

[Garvin]

Don’t you find it surprising that prewar BSA never did a non- military full stock? The German companies took the BSA design and did just that and made it into what looked like a new rifle. Now as a collector I feel that classic BSA design is on a level all its own. There is a beauty and grace that to me exceeds the full stock underlever taps. But at the time I would think that shooters would have been looking for a “normal” full stock rifle. Even prewar Webley didn’t give it to them. Maybe in the English mind had been conditioned not to expect a full stock on a air rifle.

I've often wondered this too. I suspect it was something to do with the fact that BSA was 'the one to beat' as well as a British 'go it alone' reluctance to follow German innovations before the war.

British manufacturers were quite happy to move to half stocks after Germany was defeated, and even to make one of their designs the basis of their sporter (ie Webley and the Diana mod 45).

When you look at your prewar Hubertus it's light years ahead of eg. the BSA Breakdown, which was essentially a variation on a pre-WW1 design.

It's funny, for ages I found the buttstock BSAs ugly and undesirable, whereas I thought the buttstock Webley Service a thing of beauty from the first time I clapped eyes on it - and I had to have one aged about 17.

Then the collector in me took over in my 40s and I couldn't have enough prewar BSAs.