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Thread: RWS, Original, Diana

  1. #1
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    RWS, Original, Diana

    I have the vaguest recollection from my youth 1970s and 80s that RWS as well as Original were connected to Diana.

    I also know the back story as to why German Dianas were called Originals after WW2 until 86 or so.

    What I don’t know is why something that looks a lot like a Diana 50 with a plain stock but marked RWS would turn up in the U.K.

    I’ve just bought a thing that looks like a 50 but is apparently branded RWS more more less unseen other than a couple of poor pictures. As well as it’s condition (which I fully expect to be hmm) I’m curious about the rifle but I’m not sure even getting the rifle will clear up my question.

    Does anyone know?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajf123 View Post
    I have the vaguest recollection from my youth 1970s and 80s that RWS as well as Original were connected to Diana.

    I also know the back story as to why German Dianas were called Originals after WW2 until 86 or so.

    What I don’t know is why something that looks a lot like a Diana 50 with a plain stock but marked RWS would turn up in the U.K.

    I’ve just bought a thing that looks like a 50 but is apparently branded RWS more more less unseen other than a couple of poor pictures. As well as it’s condition (which I fully expect to be hmm) I’m curious about the rifle but I’m not sure even getting the rifle will clear up my question.

    Does anyone know?
    Mike Driskill once posted this on the Dianawerke Collective website. See the last paragraph:

    ZVP touched on the different brand names that have been seen on Diana guns and that is certainly a rather broad topic!

    As he mentioned, the actual company name is Mayer & Grammelspacher. "Diana" is their chosen trade name and the factory is called the Dianawerk. The original 1890's trademark, still in use, is one of my very favorites. That lovely lady on your airgun is Diana, Goddess of the Hunt, tossing her bow and arrow to the ground while reverently holding aloft the all-conquering air rifle!

    After WW2, Diana's pre-war airgun tooling was sold to an English consortium and moved to Millard Brothers (Milbro) in Lanarkshire, Scotland. (Diana's own 1950's models were all-new designs, adding the great innovation of the ball-sear trigger, though closely based on the prewar models and sharing many model numbers.) Milbro had the rights to the Diana name in Great Britain until well into the 1980's, therefore German Dianas sold there had the brand name "Original."

    The famous Stoeger Arms company imported Dianas even before WW2, and resumed thereafter. Guns for Stoeger were branded "Peerless" and used the Diana model numbers.

    Winchester sold Diana guns from 1969 to 1975 under their own name. The rifle model numbers simply had a "4" prefix (for example, the Diana model 27 became the Winchester 427), while the models 5 and 6 pistols became the 353 and 363. For some now-forgotten reason, the model 65 match rifle was the exception, with the odd designation Winchester 333.

    Hy-Score of New York sold many Diana guns in the postwar decades with their name attached. They had their own model numbers which pretty much had no rhyme or reason! For example the model 25 rifle was the Hy-Score 801, while the closely related model 27 became the Hy-Score 807, and the tiny Diana 15 youth rifle was the Hy-Score 808.

    Beeman imported some Dianas in his early years. These actually had the British Original label at first, and were sold as "Beeman Original" guns. Later he added his own brand name and distinct model numbers, but this lasted only a short time. For example the Diana 35 rifle can be seen as the Beeman Original 35, or Beeman model 200.

    The brand names Geco and Gecado were used in other foreign markets, which I know very little about. Seems I've heard our friend Trevor say that Geco was often seen in his Down Under neighborhood! Hopefully someone can enlighten us more on those names.

    Dynamit Nobel has imported Dianas to the US since the early 1980's, and has used the RWS brand name. Just about all Diana airguns have been sold as RWS models, and there have even been some oddball guns unique to RWS, such as the models 66 and 68 which were variations of the models 36 and 38 rifles with different stocks. RWS has placed their names on many other brands of airgun as well, of course.

    For some reason, Diana also uses the RWS name occasionally for unique models in Europe. For example, the first-type Diana 45 rifle, fitted with the odd stock used on the model 35 Super, was sold in Europe as the "RWS 45." In the US, the same designation was for the Diana 45 with its normal stock!
    Vintage Airguns Gallery
    ..Above link posted with permission from Gareth W-B
    In British slang an anorak is a person who has a very strong interest in niche subjects.

  3. #3
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    So Diana would just put some Airguns into the U.K. with RWS on them because they were a little bit different to the Original Diana one. This thing I have has a plain stock with no chequering whereas Original 50s all had Chequered grips (and I am not wholly convinced the stock finish it came with at new). Very interesting and helpful. I can see I’m going to have to find this Dianawerke collective site.

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    Thanks Danny...I'd completely forgotten that old bit of my blather, lol!

    A couple minor notes to add - the early Beeman imports were actually marked "Beeman's (not "Beeman") Original;" and a couple other brand names used were "Condor" and "Donor." I believe the former was on some oddball European-market models, and the latter by a Dutch distributor.

    The model 50 was manufactured for over 30 years, sometimes with multiple variants available simultaneously, and with many evolutionary changes in stocks, sights, brand markings, and other details. You can see a great selection on Danny's "Vintage Airguns Gallery" site:

    https://forum.vintageairgunsgallery....iana-model-50/

    As to how an "RWS model 50" ended up in the UK, who knows! My guess would be a solo US-market example rather than a special edition...but I've been wrong plenty of times before! I'll look forward to seeing pictures of it.
    Last edited by MDriskill; 20-12-2022 at 11:43 AM.

  5. #5
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    Thanks for this. I will be providing updates to bore the pants off people. I’m looking forward to seeing it. I’ve only seen grainy photos. It could well be as rough as anything but as I love researching and restoring unusual old machinery this is the fun for me.

    Always liked the 50. Never even held one.

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    While the (vast?) majority of M&G guns from 1950-1982 in the U.K. are branded as Originals, it’s not uncommon to find them marked as RWS, Diana, or Gecado.

    Once Milbro had foundered, ending the British Diana brand, you definitely saw more new guns over here branded as Diana or RWS.

    As for the older ones, I suspect a combination of personal imports in their possessions by those coming home having been posted abroad with the Army, colonial service, etc (at times when an air rifle did not fit, in the mind of a customs officer, in the same category as dirty bomb or heroin), or bulk sales on the international gun market between dealers.

  7. #7
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    Thanks Danny, that's very interesting.

    Many airguns came to the US in similar ways, aided by never having been classified as firearms here. Besides individual "bring-backs" by service men or travelers, dealers could easily buy directly from a European distributor and re-sell here - no need for a formal factory wholesale import deal, or to bring in large numbers of guns with customized brand stamping, etc.

    Ladd Fanta in California and Steven Laszlo in New York (before his "Hy-Score" days) are good examples, but there were many others. Famous tuner/parts maker/stock guru Jim Maccari started out in the business by importing European airguns as an enterprising teenager!
    Last edited by MDriskill; 23-12-2022 at 06:44 PM.

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    When the new model 45 was re released here ( old action 45 in new 35s style stock ) it was from the new distributor and branded RWS 45.
    I purchased one from JSR all based on Jim Tyler ‘s report from the brilliant Sporting Air Rifle mag .

    At the same time Diana branded rifles were available from the older supplier .

  9. #9
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    Thank you! I'd heard that elsewhere, good to see first-hand confirmation.

    It would be interesting to know the story behind that. Was there some high-level deal to use the RWS mark in Europe...or maybe just a surplus of slow-selling US-marked actions to get rid of? 😄

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    There was a late model 50, branded RWS, with a very plain stock and with a Parkerised finish and very unusual open sights. I think the idea was to ape a military training rifle. I believe they came in around mid 80s, and Airgunner had one on test. I have a copy somewhere.

  11. #11
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    I owned one of those rifles for a while. It was a 50 T01, based on model 45 action, with extended cocking lever. Stock and metal finish as you describe, parkerizing was a rather nice matte dark green. Front sight was an open post with protective "ears," rear sight was a classic solid pillar type like something off a pre-war BSA.
    Last edited by MDriskill; 27-12-2022 at 10:22 PM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDriskill View Post
    I had one of those for a while. It was a 50 T01, based on model 45 action, with extended cocking lever. Stock and metal finish as you describe, parkerizing was a rather nice matte dark green. Front sight was an open post with protective "ears," rear sight was a classic solid pillar type like something off a pre-war BSA.
    That’s extremely helpful. If you know the edition of the magazine please let me know as there are always back copies for sale so I may be able to buy my own copy.

    The sights are not on mine. Unless they are in the bag (I’m hopefully picking it up from my local RFD tomorrow) I have to replace them. Keep it original (a’scuse the pun) Lord knows where I’ll find that sight. My one concession though might be to find a simple long military style post. At the back they are equally unobtainable but a later model Diana sight (optimistically called an upgrade) is £50.

    Either way I’m looking at a £100 bill for iron sights. Still I didn’t buy it on the economics of it. Don’t anyone throw their iron sights away.
    Last edited by Ajf123; 27-12-2022 at 11:20 AM.

  13. #13
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    I don't know the magazine - but wouldn't mind having my own copy! Here's a thread from the US "Gateway to Airguns" (GTA) forum. Excellent photos of the sights and more linked in the initial post; some repeated if you scroll down.

    https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA...topic=150525.0

    I may be mis-remembering, but the standard 50 T01 had the very nice Diana fully click-adjustable rear sight of the day, and I have a vague notion some examples of the "military" version did too.

    This sight is on a pre-war Diana model 45 underlever; the sight on the 50 looks quite similar!





    Last edited by MDriskill; 27-12-2022 at 10:19 PM.

  14. #14
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    Having dug around a lot that RWS sight looks a lot like a BSA Airsporter/cadet major sight too. What seems to differently then is the RWS 50 sight in the link looks to have a screw to lock windage. I can’t see how that’s done on BSA and prewar Diana sights.

    Edit, having read some more I am fairly sure the pillar sights on the RWS were also used in the Diana 30. This then started to look a lot like a German training rifle or the Mauser.
    Last edited by Ajf123; 28-12-2022 at 01:14 PM.

  15. #15
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    My RWS 50 arrived. The RFD wasn’t wholly enthusiastic about the condition so when I opened the box I was pleasantly surprised that the grey green parkerised finish was mostly there albeit covered in gun oil and with a couple of nasty scrapes at the end of the barrel.

    What I thought was a threaded refinished muzzle end (bad as it’s supposed to be dovetailed for the fwd sight) turned out to be very tightly wound tape with no doubt the dovetails and a bit of a mess underneath.

    It’s got a lovely sling swivel at the back. God knows how the front one fitted on or where it is. More importantly the open sights aren’t there but it looks like it’s set up for the later Diana 35/45 sights which isn’t what I was expecting.

    It doesn’t have a safety, or not one that I can see. Now whilst I know most 50s don’t, this one is a very late one (8, 86 is what I can think I can see under the oil) and based on Diana 45 bits not 35 so I thought it would have one. Not that it matters - don’t put a pellet in the tap until you are ready to shoot seems to be a fairly safe procedure to me.

    On tbh topic of the tap, the spring that gives it a positive click seems to be there but weak so something else to adjust or replace.

    Finally the stock. Calling it Basic doesn’t do it justice. It’s go no butt pad nor any sign one was ever fitted, just grooves cut into the butt, like the factory did it. While I’m an inexperienced shooter to say the least it’s not the nicest at the shoulder end at all and I can see at the very least one of those butt cloth wraps so my cheek doesn’t hover a couple of inches about the butt arriving in the next month. It doesn’t feel heavy but without any of the adornments of a recent rifle, it feels huge. I’ll admit to feeling like Private Pike on the closing credits of Dads Army holding it. Still with a rifle this long I can be sitting well away from the target and still have the muzzle a few feet from it.
    Last edited by Ajf123; 30-12-2022 at 02:10 AM.

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