What killed Webley?

[Muskett]

Trigger.

The management refused to invest, refused to build something better that could shoot beyond the farmyard, and blankly refused to build in a better quality trigger. They just couldn't see where airguns were going or what money the consumer would be prepared to pay for something better.

A Webley Vulcan deluxe had the same price as a HW80! BSA was almost as bad.

At the end of the day it came down to lack of imagination and lack of investment in machinery. Also everyone was paid handsomely without warranting it. Well thats what I think.
Sadly, they weren't the only example in British industry that just couldn't keep up with the times. All flogging a tired old horse, and surprised when it dropped dead.

[clarky]

Trigger.

The management refused to invest, refused to build something better that could shoot beyond the farmyard, and blankly refused to build in a better quality trigger. They just couldn't see where airguns were going or what money the consumer would be prepared to pay for something better.

A Webley Vulcan deluxe had the same price as a HW80! BSA was almost as bad.

At the end of the day it came down to lack of imagination and lack of investment in machinery. Also everyone was paid handsomely without warranting it. Well thats what I think.
Sadly, they weren't the only example in British industry that just couldn't keep up with the times. All flogging a tired old horse, and surprised when it dropped dead.

Try the same pistol for 70 years.
The same powerplant, same barrel, same sight adjustment, same trigger mechanics.....and same performance...
So they been making a pistol for 70 years but HW comes out with 3 new ones all better in about 1 year.
There is no need to ask the question!

[B&W FOX]

The Stiff Upper Lip type management from the 1920's to the 1970's killed off most of Britain's great companies

[Benelli B76]

The Stiff Upper Lip type management from the 1920's to the 1970's killed off most of Britain's great companies

This seems to have been a problem throughout British industry, hope its changing. I came back to UK after 22 years in South Africa. Was stunned at the way companies were run in a blinkered negative way. Before you put forward an idea they answer was already prepared as "NO". One experience I had was dealing with huge supermarket customers with trolley problems. A local one here had a slightly sloping car park and loaded trollies were running away sideways with the customers unable to guide them. I said overseas they use two fixed castors at the back and two swivel at the front which makes them easy to guide. The company tried every weird way to overcome the problem but would not listen to me and never solved it. Spent a fortune, and this was a typical example.

Baz

[hwtyger]

I think lack of advertisement/marketing in export countries.
There was nothing wrong with Stongray/Longbow triggers. They werent 'worse' than comparable T05 Diana triggers, which is/was a good, decent, trigger. And I actually prefer the Lb triggers above the long sluggish Record. The Lb triggers are far shorter in travel than a standard Record can ever be.

Webley build quality was far abóve the competition; havent seen better blueing than on Webley high end rifles. HW/Diana/AA couldnt get on par with that.

But, at least here in the netherlands, they werent marketed at all. So they sold badly. They were also quite steep in price. Probably also because they were from across the pond instead of from the country next door.
Lesser known brands are always more difficult to sell. People, most of them anyway, look at what their neighbor has. They are herd people. And the herd has HW. Easy.
Also, with FT etc becoming more popular, underlevers became more popular and Webley didnt have 1 (after discontinuing the Eclipse) and the Eclipse couldnt compete.
Dunno much about PCP's, Im into springers, but the 2shot PCPs I've never understood. I think that wasnt a seller either. You dont see any 2shot pcp's anymore either. For a reason. Its all 5/10 shot.
So the internal adjustment to market wishes was also a bit lacking. And tháts deadly. You have to give the customer what it wants or they wont buy.

[Baxterbasics]

What killed Webley.

Easy: Weihrauch!

[derekj]

I think lack of advertisement/marketing in export countries.
There was nothing wrong with Stongray/Longbow triggers. They werent 'worse' than comparable T05 Diana triggers, which is/was a good, decent, trigger. And I actually prefer the Lb triggers above the long sluggish Record. The Lb triggers are far shorter in travel than a standard Record can ever be.

Webley build quality was far abóve the competition; havent seen better blueing than on Webley high end rifles. HW/Diana/AA couldnt get on par with that.

But, at least here in the netherlands, they werent marketed at all. So they sold badly. They were also quite steep in price. Probably also because they were from across the pond instead of from the country next door.
Lesser known brands are always more difficult to sell. People, most of them anyway, look at what their neighbor has. They are herd people. And the herd has HW. Easy.
Also, with FT etc becoming more popular, underlevers became more popular and Webley didnt have 1 (after discontinuing the Eclipse) and the Eclipse couldnt compete.
Dunno much about PCP's, Im into springers, but the 2shot PCPs I've never understood. I think that wasnt a seller either. You dont see any 2shot pcp's anymore either. For a reason. Its all 5/10 shot.
So the internal adjustment to market wishes was also a bit lacking. And tháts deadly. You have to give the customer what it wants or they wont buy.

The Webley trigger on the Stingray is no where near as good as the Diana T05 trigger, and the T06 trigger is superb. The AA bluing is far superior to any Webley rifle I've ever seen.

[edbear2]

Trigger.

The management refused to invest, refused to build something better that could shoot beyond the farmyard, and blankly refused to build in a better quality trigger. They just couldn't see where airguns were going or what money the consumer would be prepared to pay for something better.

A Webley Vulcan deluxe had the same price as a HW80! BSA was almost as bad.

At the end of the day it came down to lack of imagination and lack of investment in machinery. Also everyone was paid handsomely without warranting it. Well thats what I think.
Sadly, they weren't the only example in British industry that just couldn't keep up with the times. All flogging a tired old horse, and surprised when it dropped dead.

Same as the motorbike industry

ATB, Ed

[harvey_s]

I think maybe they just lost their way...

Pre-war and just afterwards they company tried to produce the highest quality air guns made to firearms standards.
They cost a fortune to make and had a high selling price.
Rumour has it they were losing money on every Service rifle and Senior pistol they sold...
So then they tried cheapening their existing designs to make money and the trouble there is that once you've offered a high quality product and then try to take it away - the public can see what you've done and expect a lower selling price.

Then add to this the timing...
The war had not long finished, companies had bugger all money to invest, machinery was knackered from years of wartime production and the labour pool was in a state of flux.
Contrast this with Germany - who had all their designs nicked by the British as war reparations and had their factories flattened.
So they ended with new factories and came up with new designs being made on new machinery.

Meanwhile in Blighty the 'make do and mend' mentality was firmly entrenched while the customers were patriotic to start with this quickly changed as the next generation came along who were less tethered to the past and whilst their employment might be governed by the old guard, their spending most certainly was not and the new German rifles were very well made and better than the by now, old British offerings.

[gingernut]

Reverse the question and look at what made Daystate and Air Arms successful.

[grantb]

Both Webley and BSA airguns were poorly marketed here in Canada. Growing up in the 1960s and 1970s, I seldom saw British airguns being advertised or sold in Canadian sporting goods stores. I recall seeing mostly Crosman, Daisy and Sylvia products.

[cinedux]

When Weihrauch rifles came on the NZ market you couldn't give a Webley away! The pistol scene was a different story. Crosman's hand-guns ensured fine old Webleys remained on shop shelves. In a country starved of pistols and revolvers,replicas filled the bill.Of course now,or up until recently(and importation prohibition),Umarex products dominated.

[abellringer]

I have to agree with many of the comments about management and investment. I had first hand experience, there were directors who came into W & S mid 70's, they had no knowledge of guns and shooting ethos; I fell out with both fairly quickly. REASON. A conversation -- me why are we putting in cheap split pins and spirol dowels; answer -- how much do you think it costs to put in screws, never mind those bloody locking screws, dowels will do the same thing and make 50 times more profit. Me, I can understand the economics, but customers have expectations and the new German guns have super quality and engineering as standard, surely anything they can do we can at least match, reply if people want foreign guns it's up to them, but there will always be people who buy Webleys because of the history. Me -- ok so when are we going to make at least a proper 10m rifle if not pistol??, reply we aren't, there's more money in cheap and cheerful. Me -- yes but we had a reputable gun in the MKIII, we now only make low to mid range quality guns now, we need to keep up or lose customers, especially as the Hawk stocks and front screws aren't up to the job. Answer we make more money getting 4 stocks out of a plank than 3, even if the grain is no good through the grip. they don't all break and we are looking at the screws anyway, but we don't want to get into top quality or 10m stuff, our way forward is cheap and cheerful, if they don't last folk will always buy another anyway. Me -- isn't that a way to losing customers full stop? no one can carry on with that way of thinking. Reply -- what are you going on about, a gun is a gun, ''piece of wood, metal tubes on top, pull a lever and bang'', what more do want. Me -- sorry I don't agree, there's a whole lot of history, craftsmanship and personal pride in being in this trade and if I can't be allowed to have that in my mind I think we are on a parting path. Reply that's the trouble with trades like this, if you don't look at profits first you'll never succeed. etc. etc.
It was explained years later; ''they all went to the same school of mismanagement and now we feel the effects'', from a craftsman about to retire at 70, this in the 80's and sadly; I think he was right.
Accountants and non engineers have a lot to answer for.
That's my grumble out of the way and actually I feel better for it.
ATVB
abellringer