Is .223 worth it?

[taz2]

Hi do you mind if I ask what you would consider mediocre at 100yds?if any rifle is shooting out of the killzone at that range I’d give up
Also in my experience you can reload the best bullet for a rifle and have amazing groups benchrested,but when you’ve just did a couple hundred yard stalk on your stomach your not going to produce the same shot,but you are going to get it in the killzone if your a competent shooter

Well, that's a difficult question to answer. Peoples' perceptions vary enormously as to what they're satisfied with. Personally, I reckon if you can't consistently put 5 shots into under an inch with a factory sporter, and under half that regularly with a half decent target rifle, you've got room to improve.
Most modern rifles are easily capable of doing it. Some even guarantee it nowadays.
A good reload will improve most rifles, I dare say even transform them.
I take your point about bench versus stalk, but if it's mediocre off the bench, it is for sure it will only get worse.
We all have had 'screamers', but doing it every time takes a bit more effort.
Of course, some guns will never do it---if all fails, time for a change.

[kennyc]

Well, that's a difficult question to answer. Peoples' perceptions vary enormously as to what they're satisfied with. Personally, I reckon if you can't consistently put 5 shots into under an inch with a factory sporter, and under half that regularly with a half decent target rifle, you've got room to improve.
Most modern rifles are easily capable of doing it. Some even guarantee it nowadays.
A good reload will improve most rifles, I dare say even transform them.
I take your point about bench versus stalk, but if it's mediocre off the bench, it is for sure it will only get worse.
We all have had 'screamers', but doing it every time takes a bit more effort.
Of course, some guns will never do it---if all fails, time for a change.

I have always been slightly amused at the thought that target performance will dictate field performance, a rifle that can hold 1/2 MOA on a target will not neseccarilly shoot better on a live target than a 2MOA rifle, yes it is theoretically more accurate, but in practice the rifle accuracy is way down the list of factors when making a shot from sticks, freehand, off the side of a tree trunk etc,
the only real effect that 1/2MOA has in confidence, which admitted , is a definite positive for a lot of people, but its not the "be all,end all " for a hunting rifle, and I think this is where the apparent difference of opinion occurrs between those that demand ultimate accuracy, and those that realise "dead is dead" (humanely, I'm not talking about the poor thing hovering around for half an hour)

[taz2]

Well, I don't really have an answer to that. Quite clearly we are never going to agree over this. You are entitled to your opinion, as am I.
I still stand by my views and original statement, and still can't understand why anyone would settle for a gun which shoots less accurately than it could with a bit of effort, be it targets OR hunting.
The prospect of shooting live quarry, a thing I have done and still do occasionally without a gun as accurate as I can make it fills me with self doubts--- but that's just my opinion.

[223AI]

Well, I don't really have an answer to that. Quite clearly we are never going to agree over this. You are entitled to your opinion, as am I.
I still stand by my views and original statement, and still can't understand why anyone would settle for a gun which shoots less accurately than it could with a bit of effort, be it targets OR hunting.
The prospect of shooting live quarry, a thing I have done and still do occasionally without a gun as accurate as I can make it fills me with self doubts--- but that's just my opinion.

Time?

I shoot various quarry with various guns, reloading for a few calibres, 5 of which go into the field. Shots on vermin never really past 300, deer under 200. If I spent all my time chasing itsy bitsy groups with each rifle I'd never get over the 4000 acres or so I shoot in my spare time (with mr kennyC), <1" at 100 of of a bench (or roof of the truck) and I'm done with load development. I take the rifle out and use it for what it was made.....

On smaller game if you're not shooting for the table then all you have to worry about is being humane (apart from safety obviously), a 40 gr HP bullet 'somewhere' in the chest of a rabbit from a .22LR will result in some runners, a 40 gr HP from a .22 Hornet 'somewhere' in the chest of a rabbit is instant death, even if you're an inch off the heart. Energy can make up for some lack of accuracy or driver error.

[taz2]

Time?

I shoot various quarry with various guns, reloading for a few calibres, 5 of which go into the field. Shots on vermin never really past 300, deer under 200. If I spent all my time chasing itsy bitsy groups with each rifle I'd never get over the 4000 acres or so I shoot in my spare time (with mr kennyC), <1" at 100 of of a bench (or roof of the truck) and I'm done with load development. I take the rifle out and use it for what it was made.....

On smaller game if you're not shooting for the table then all you have to worry about is being humane (apart from safety obviously), a 40 gr HP bullet 'somewhere' in the chest of a rabbit from a .22LR will result in some runners, a 40 gr HP from a .22 Hornet 'somewhere' in the chest of a rabbit is instant death, even if you're an inch off the heart. Energy can make up for some lack of accuracy or driver error.

ok
last try and then I'm done.
A ''2min'' rifle equates to 4 ins spread at 200 yds (your max for deer). Add that to your personal error in aiming (not a sleight on you--but your own admission due to 100 yd stalk), and suddenly you could be out of the kill-zone for a deer--- maybe a lot out.
Oh, and despite taking the time to ensure that my rifles shoot as well as possible, I do find time to use them for what they're made for. You only have to sort a load out once usually.

[kennyc]

ok
last try and then I'm done.
A ''2min'' rifle equates to 4 ins spread at 200 yds (your max for deer). Add that to your personal error in aiming (not a sleight on you--but your own admission due to 100 yd stalk), and suddenly you could be out of the kill-zone for a deer--- maybe a lot out.
Oh, and despite taking the time to ensure that my rifles shoot as well as possible, I do find time to use them for what they're made for. You only have to sort a load out once usually.

you could be, but in real life you aren't, I have watched Boydy take repeated headshots on rabbits out to 150+yards without a miss, yet his rifle probably wouldn't impress on paper, and these were at night with NV and off of sticks!

[223AI]

you could be, but in real life you aren't, I have watched Boydy take repeated headshots on rabbits out to 150+yards without a miss, yet his rifle probably wouldn't impress on paper, and these were at night with NV and off of sticks!

My 20 year old hornet with a pitted bore, I love that rifle!!

[223AI]

ok
last try and then I'm done.
A ''2min'' rifle equates to 4 ins spread at 200 yds (your max for deer). Add that to your personal error in aiming (not a sleight on you--but your own admission due to 100 yd stalk), and suddenly you could be out of the kill-zone for a deer--- maybe a lot out.
Oh, and despite taking the time to ensure that my rifles shoot as well as possible, I do find time to use them for what they're made for. You only have to sort a load out once usually.

My point is at <1" I'm sorted, that's enough for me and I get out and use them, no doubt by changing bullets, powder, seating depth etc. I could halve that in most of my rifle but I don't think I'd miss less or kill more.

As for the deer point, this is why most people chest shoot deer rather than head shoot - on a roe your 'kill zone' is 4" granted but if your POA is correct then too low for the heart and its generally a clean miss, 2" high you are top of lungs / spine resulting in dead or immobiled deer, 2" too far forward you break both shoulders / hit the Hilar zone resulting in a dead or immobile deer, 2" too far back you hit the liver, deer will run but you should have a good blood trail and deer should bleed out quickly so humane (only time this has happened to me deer didn't make 100 yards).

Also with 4" kill zone as mentioned above you are talking roe, as the species get bigger so does the kill zone, about 8" on a red . . . . I've also seen Kenny hit 8 bulls in a row with a 7.5 x 55 and iron sights, rested off of a bag, at 900 yards and he usually shoots from a high seat on deer.