Why I am Beginning To Change My Mind About Sub12 Hunting

[krisko]

Try a .25, it has stopping power. Even at sub 12. It retains more energy than .177 or .22.
It flies 100fps+ faster than any arrow

Get a range finder too. Over 40yards you have to be hft master to kill with a .177 anyway.
.177 is for gurls lol

.177 is like driving knitting needles in and out through the animal body

I would limit the range and use larger caliber, that’s what we can do best with our power limits.
If the limit was 30 or 50, there would be the same discussion here but at different distances 100-200yards shots. Or simply about different size quarry-larger animals taken. Currently on the US forums slugs are the hot topic...
Some just want to push their limits, trying their luck all the time

[Geezer]

Try a .25, it has stopping power...

.177 is like driving knitting needles in and out through the animal body

Here we go again. Sigh.

There is no such thing as "stopping power". If there was, we could measure it scientifically. What we can measure are terminal ballistics. We can also medically assess wound effects. Every decent study ever done indicates that effectiveness is a combination of shot placement, energy, and the performance of the projectile in the target, which is a function of both projectile construction and things like projectile stability. With shot placement the most important factor, provided that the ballistics give a basic level of penetration.

As for the .177" "knitting needle", a knitting needle through the cerebral cortex = dead animal.

You cannot get more dead than dead. Either it is dead or not. A .177" air rifle head shot at 8ft-lbs retained energy kills a rabbit just as dead as a .50"BMG burst that cuts it literally in half.

Sorry guys, but this whole thread is getting a bit annoying. Many decades of mass experience show that a reasonable sub-12 air rifle of any type or calibre in the hands of a reasonable shooter at sensible ranges is a perfectly acceptable and humane pest control tool.

[jumbuck]

Here we go again. Sigh.

There is no such thing as "stopping power". If there was, we could measure it scientifically. What we can measure are terminal ballistics. We can also medically assess wound effects. Every decent study ever done indicates that effectiveness is a combination of shot placement, energy, and the performance of the projectile in the target, which is a function of both projectile construction and things like projectile stability. With shot placement the most important factor, provided that the ballistics give a basic level of penetration.

As for the .177" "knitting needle", a knitting needle through the cerebral cortex = dead animal.

You cannot get more dead than dead. Either it is dead or not. A .177" air rifle head shot at 8ft-lbs retained energy kills a rabbit just as dead as a .50"BMG burst that cuts it literally in half.

Sorry guys, but this whole thread is getting a bit annoying. Many decades of mass experience show that a reasonable sub-12 air rifle of any type or calibre in the hands of a reasonable shooter at sensible ranges is a perfectly acceptable and humane pest control tool.

Stick of TNT and a box of matches Works in the cowboy films

[secretagentmole]

Stick of TNT and a box of matches Works in the cowboy films

Picture the scene, Scout camp, survival weekend, basically basic food, but see what you can find in the forest to eat sort of thing. Well we were a maverick sort of patrol, unorthodox in approach and downright bleeding devious on occasions. There was a massive rabbit warren on the field, my APL (Assistant Patrol Leader) Murph's parents owned a newsagents, it was just after Guy Fakes night, Murph knew I could prepare a rabbit....

So my patrol all mark the warren entrances and proceed with stuffing fireworks down the burrow entrances, we had lots of fireworks, Murph's dad dropped them off when we were suposed to be foraging for mushrooms. With everyone else off the campsite Iceni patrol was busy at work.... With matches ready we each had a firework rocket jammed at the top of the warren with god only knows what else rammed down the burrow. On the command of strike we struck matches, light saw the rocket fuses lit, and 6 scouts heading for the undergrowth only to run into the scout master, who asked what we were doing as we hit the ground, and the middle of the campsite went about 4 ft in the air....


We used the crater as a fire pit.... It's still there...

[MartynB]

Picture the scene, Scout camp, survival weekend, basically basic food, but see what you can find in the forest to eat sort of thing. Well we were a maverick sort of patrol, unorthodox in approach and downright bleeding devious on occasions. There was a massive rabbit warren on the field, my APL (Assistant Patrol Leader) Murph's parents owned a newsagents, it was just after Guy Fakes night, Murph knew I could prepare a rabbit....

So my patrol all mark the warren entrances and proceed with stuffing fireworks down the burrow entrances, we had lots of fireworks, Murph's dad dropped them off when we were suposed to be foraging for mushrooms. With everyone else off the campsite Iceni patrol was busy at work.... With matches ready we each had a firework rocket jammed at the top of the warren with god only knows what else rammed down the burrow. On the command of strike we struck matches, light saw the rocket fuses lit, and 6 scouts heading for the undergrowth only to run into the scout master, who asked what we were doing as we hit the ground, and the middle of the campsite went about 4 ft in the air....


We used the crater as a fire pit.... It's still there...

But did you actually get any rabbits ?

[krisko]

Here we go again. Sigh.

There is no such thing as "stopping power". If there was, we could measure it scientifically. What we can measure are terminal ballistics. We can also medically assess wound effects. Every decent study ever done indicates that effectiveness is a combination of shot placement, energy, and the performance of the projectile in the target, which is a function of both projectile construction and things like projectile stability. With shot placement the most important factor, provided that the ballistics give a basic level of penetration.

As for the .177" "knitting needle", a knitting needle through the cerebral cortex = dead animal.

You cannot get more dead than dead. Either it is dead or not. A .177" air rifle head shot at 8ft-lbs retained energy kills a rabbit just as dead as a .50"BMG burst that cuts it literally in half.

Sorry guys, but this whole thread is getting a bit annoying. Many decades of mass experience show that a reasonable sub-12 air rifle of any type or calibre in the hands of a reasonable shooter at sensible ranges is a perfectly acceptable and humane pest control tool.

I have got 2x 177s, 2x22s and a .25. Believe me the .25 is for hunting killing animals. The others are easier to connect with the target/ shoot but that’s it.
Learn to shoot a .25 then come back here to comment.

[secretagentmole]

I have got 2x 177s, 2x22s and a .25. Believe me the .25 is for hunting killing animals. The others are easier to connect with the target/ shoot but that’s it.
Learn to shoot a .25 then come back here to comment.

Why not get a sub 12 .303 then? That will kill them even deaderer!

A .177 will kill, instantly, as will a .2 and a .22.
If you wound with a .25 it is still going to hurt.

[Gunfun]

I think sub 12 air rifle hunting is of critical importance to the UK and have no doubt it can be performed humanely and ethically.
Anyone who has the slightest understanding of the environment, ecology and economy of this country knows certain species have to be controlled, and anyone who understands shooting knows that small calibre powder burners and shotguns are not suitable for shooting small quarry in many instances. The alternative to air rifles is poison and traps which are nether 100% species specific or as humane/lethal as shooting.

First I think we have to look at the compounded successful effects that many decades of sub 12 air rifle hunting has had on the UK, so imagine if all the quarry taken by sub 12 hunting over many decades had been allowed to live and reproduce, and consider how damaging that would have been on the environment, ecology and economy of the UK.
If sub 12 hunting was banned we would either be up to our ankles in rats, the red squirrels and songbirds would disappear and vast amounts of crops would be destroyed, alternatively the mass use of poison and traps would destroy much the very wild life we desperately need to preserve.

Secondly, for me proof of humane and ethical hunting with sub 12 air rifles comes down to one thing and that is my shot/kill ratio, I haven't hunted for a while now but when I was very actively hunting I was getting a 95% shot/kill which is a minimum of 19 out of 20 shots at quarry would kill the quarry. Obviously I didn't start hunting with this kind of success (my first hunting trip nearly put me off hunting for life), for me to achieve this I had to work very hard (theory and practical) on three main areas -
Markmanship
Fieldcraft
Quarry behaviour knowledge

Personally if I couldn't achieve over a 90% shot/kill ratio I'd stop hunting for a while until I figured out where I was going wrong and try not to resort to blaming the tools I was using for the job. I realised biggest weaknesses when I started hunting were not knowing angled shots, judging the wind incorrectly, shooting too far and not waiting until the quarry had settled before taking a shot, once I got these aspects sorted hunting became a pleasure because of the effectiveness of each shot and knowing of the greater good I was doing.

[Artfull-Bodger]

Just keep the range down to less than 40yds, airgun hunting used to be about fieldcraft, most shots were in the 20-25yd range, I think the improvement in rifle and especially ammunition accuracy these days is convincing people to take longer and longer shots.

We shoot golf balls off a rack down our range at 60yds and a 30mm kill zone bell target at 70yds, but that's from a stable FT style sitting position, not standing, crouching or leaning on a tree.

[danco1987]

Just keep the range down to less than 40yds, airgun hunting used to be about fieldcraft, most shots were in the 20-25yd range, I think the improvement in rifle and especially ammunition accuracy these days is convincing people to take longer and longer shots.

We shoot golf balls off a rack down our range at 60yds and a 30mm kill zone bell target at 70yds, but that's from a stable FT style sitting position, not standing, crouching or leaning on a tree.

Completely agree. Improvements in equipment has led to YouTubers posting videos of silly long distance shots which will convince novices that these sorts of ranges are acceptable. Problem is, people starting out will be put off if this leads to unclean shots and assume sub 12 is not a tool for the job. I think it's important to spread the message that sub 12 hunting is all about field craft and restricted distance to ensure we achieve the highest shot to kill ratios as possible. Only then is hunting with sub 12 enjoyable and most importantly effective at helping reduce pest species for landowners, which they are in manner different scenarios when firearms are not suitable and even where they are, such fitted with NV from vehicles. You get these people pushing the boundaries unnecessarily in all hobbies and walks of life - fishing, driving, you name it. But the vast majority of material out there on the web and videos on YouTube do promote good practice and that's what I try and do when talking to anyone about hunting with sub 12s.

[krisko]

Here we go again. Sigh.

There is no such thing as "stopping power". If there was, we could measure it scientifically. What we can measure are terminal ballistics. We can also medically assess wound effects. Every decent study ever done indicates that effectiveness is a combination of shot placement, energy, and the performance of the projectile in the target, which is a function of both projectile construction and things like projectile stability. With shot placement the most important factor, provided that the ballistics give a basic level of penetration.

As for the .177" "knitting needle", a knitting needle through the cerebral cortex = dead animal.

You cannot get more dead than dead. Either it is dead or not. A .177" air rifle head shot at 8ft-lbs retained energy kills a rabbit just as dead as a .50"BMG burst that cuts it literally in half.

Sorry guys, but this whole thread is getting a bit annoying. Many decades of mass experience show that a reasonable sub-12 air rifle of any type or calibre in the hands of a reasonable shooter at sensible ranges is a perfectly acceptable and humane pest control tool.

Regarding stopping power
.177 has 16mm2 crossection a .25 has double i.e 32mm2 so what do you think which will cause more damage on a shallow target? A .25 will not drill holes in metal or roofing sheets if there is a pass through, alright maybe if you want to shoot through some chicken wires, with a .177 it is going to be lower probability of clipping. Or with night vision when you have to but can’t range properly the .177 is easier a better choice

Both must hurt when you shoot yourself with, can’t make a comparison but the muzzle energy is the same, at least at the muzzle first. Later the .177 is losing big time energy at 40yards the .177 is close to 7fpe while the .25 is still around 8fpe.

[Muskett]

With 12ft/lbs rifles then the .25 drops like a stone. Its pure scale on small critters does make a difference plus the mass of them. Its still just a bigger knitting needle.
As for farmyard equipment and effect on buildings then the heavier pellet makes a larger dent or cracks brittle items like tiles. I find that the .177 penetrates wood more often than .22, the latter often bounces back; the limited experience of .25 even more so. All can chip brick, dent metal sheeting, crack slate, or bust tiles. I find the .177 either does less damage or makes a hole. The .22 a bit less, but more on brittle stuff.

You just need to look at the spent pellets squidge that collect on the backstop plate on your zero range. How plastic the lead is at different ranges and energies. The bigger the pellet the more integrity they keep.
All do damage to anything they hit; so don't hit things that matter. Keep it into the dirt or stuff that doesn't matter like wood pallets. The odd hit on brickwork is usually fine but not too many into one area; the damage can mount up.
All sheeting doesn't like it. A leaking roof is a pain to fix.

Lastly, lead pellets sure like ricocheting. Wood they will come straight back at you. Metal zing off at any angle. They can skip on concrete. You don't want livestock hit with a ricochet. Think backstop all the time, and double think it too. You pull the trigger you are responsible.

Not sure if I've helped answer your question but all adds to the knowledge.

[DEAN C.]

How many conversations are going on here!

One minute I thought I was agreeing with Muskett ….then he chipped back at me, I think! Then someone is preaching about B12 injections and veggies ruling the world, and then the .177/22 debate all over again.

Who the heck started this conversation...…. I've lost track. What was it about?

All I know is an accurate pellet sub 12 kills dead, twitch or no twitch. If anyone eats meat or not is their right of choice.

[Muskett]

How many conversations are going on here!

One minute I thought I was agreeing with Muskett ….then he chipped back at me, I think! Then someone is preaching about B12 injections and veggies ruling the world, and then the .177/22 debate all over again.

Who the heck started this conversation...…. I've lost track. What was it about?

All I know is an accurate pellet sub 12 kills dead, twitch or no twitch. If anyone eats meat or not is their right of choice.

No, I think I was agreeing with you. I'm hoping you will leave me that Pro Sport "my precious" in your will to me!! No hurry
Think at least three if not four subjects last count.

I'm too drugged up on pain killers for my back to go to the pub so this conversation had to suffice!! The end result was its an individual's "call" if anyone want to hunt with 12ft/lbs air rifles or not, and if they do what range to keep to if you are a true sportsman that respects his quarry. The newer kit can get 15 more meters than the older stuff which is best kept to farmyard ranges, and thats with good marksmanship and practice.
Loads of different views. Made Countryfile look a biased skewed thing that it is.

[Skipper]

I have read some utter shite on this post. Especially in the first few pages.