Hate to 'stir the semi auto nest' but...

[tinbum]

'5 Weapons subject to general prohibition.E+W+S.(1)A person commits an offence if, without the authority of the Defence Council [F8or the Scottish Ministers (by virtue of provision made under section 63 of the Scotland Act 1998)], he has in his possession, or purchases or acquires, or manufactures, sells or transfers— .
[F9(a)any firearm which is so designed or adapted that two or more missiles can be successively discharged without repeated pressure on the trigger; .
(ab)any self-loading or pump-action [F10 rifled gun] other than one which is chambered for .22 rim-fire cartridges;

I've added the bold, but that's the law, as stated in the Firearms Act.

Just so we're clear.

So why are we allowed so many pump action and self loading rifled barrel airguns then? Is it the law turning a blind eye?

[Craig-P]

There's also a pump action for sale on the same site. It's the original Logun S16, before it went to side lever format...
With regard to the smooth bore barrel law, which I wasn't aware of, I wonder if that would cover a smooth twist barrel too.
Plus, I have a spare .22 rifle slot on my FAC, I wonder if I could buy a rifled barrelled version.

It's all interesting me, at least for now.

[Terry D]

So why are we allowed so many pump action and self loading rifled barrel airguns then? Is it the law turning a blind eye?

Definition. 'Rifled gun' being a rifle, not a pistol.

[tinbum]

Definition. 'Rifled gun' being a rifle, not a pistol.

Sorry. It's very unusual for a law to make such a glaring mistake in terminology.

So why are we allowed so many pump action and self loading rifles then? Is the law turning a blind eye?

Edit: I'm not being facetious, and the above may read that way. But what about the aforementioned S-16, the Skan Rifles etc, they're pump action! The Theoben SLR stands for "Self Loading Rifle". There's nothing in the law about it being self cocking. That brings many others into dispute without even mentioning the Drulov DU10 Eagle 5 shot, true semi automatic target rifle. Ok, that's not full power, but again the law as written mentions no power limitations at all.

Are all these section 5 now?

[Hsing-ee]

Why do people want sporting power semi-auto PCPs? Are they for suppressive fire against columns of armoured rats?

[tinbum]

Why do people want sporting power semi-auto PCPs? Are they for suppressive fire against columns of armoured rats?

I personally don't like multi shots of any sort. They encourage wastefulness and bring about dark humours of the soul. Have you ever met anyone with a multishot you liked?

[Hsing-ee]

I personally don't like multi shots of any sort. They encourage wastefulness and bring about dark humours of the soul. Have you ever met anyone with a multishot you liked?

I agree. It discourages precision. I used a semi-auto .22 LR rifle quite alot (targets only) and after the novelty wore off I went back to a bolt-action. It was far more satisfying to use. I also had a Drulov and Brno semi-auto air-pistols and they got sold as well. Precision is the joy of sport shooting, and repeaters discourage it. Professionals who hunt game animals rarely choose a semi-auto, and most target disciplines don't use them. The military and police who are obliged to use force will use whatever technology is necessary but that is a special application.

As for 'fun', IMO it is much better to buy an electric airsoft and go full-auto at 'fun' targets. I had one of those for a while and it was a blast before it got boring. Spraying ammo downrange is ultimately nihilistic, just check out the New World goons on YouTube firing hundreds of rounds through their Chinese AKs till the woodwork catches fire.

Dark humour of the soul is right.

[Craig-P]

I agree. It discourages precision. I used a semi-auto .22 LR rifle quite alot (targets only) and after the novelty wore off I went back to a bolt-action. It was far more satisfying to use. I also had a Drulov and Brno semi-auto air-pistols and they got sold as well. Precision is the joy of sport shooting, and repeaters discourage it. Professionals who hunt game animals rarely choose a semi-auto, and most target disciplines don't use them. The military and police who are obliged to use force will use whatever technology is necessary but that is a special application.

As for 'fun', IMO it is much better to buy an electric airsoft and go full-auto at 'fun' targets. I had one of those for a while and it was a blast before it got boring. Spraying ammo downrange is ultimately nihilistic, just check out the New World goons on YouTube firing hundreds of rounds through their Chinese AKs till the woodwork catches fire.

Dark humour of the soul is right.

I disagree (and honestly, not for the purpose of this thread). I shoot S/A .22lr and also use an eleven shot 12g. Whilst I've never found the need to empty all eleven shots at any kind of vermin with the shotgun, I regularly use more than four when decent flocks of pigeon come in, or when a fox hasn't gone down from the first shot and needs quick follow up shots. I regularly shoot groups of two and three rabbits with the .22lr, although that being said, I've also shot groups of the same number with a bolt action - but when I've been lucky. Same story when I've been ratting.
I can empty a ten round .22lr magazine in seconds, however trying to keep a level of accuracy is 'challenging' - and trying that on paper/inanimate targets, to me, is enjoyable. Thats where the attraction of these S/A air rifles comes in to play for me. I have to be extremely careful when plinking with my .22lr and set up a backstop to a 'paranoid level', in a certain area, on a certain permission of mine. I wouldn't have to go to anywhere near that level with a 12fpe rifle, shooting lightweight, lead pellets. It's impossible to get a decent level of accuracy at anything approaching mid-range with any of the Co2 offerings, so a semi auto that offers that level of accuracy and capability is surely a breakthrough.
So whilst I personally think the Evanix offering looks awful and I wouldn't dream of forking out £1,500 for one (that's about the price of five Ruger 10/22's), I do like the thought of that technology becoming mainstream. I can think of at least three new disciplines to be enjoyed and if certain people were somehow educated to the fact that semi auto doesn't mean an increase of things put in a game bag, I can't see one downside to them.

Cheers, Craig

[rockdrill]

most target disciplines don't use them.

Last time I looked there are a shed load of disciplines in Gallery Rifle where s/a .22rf rifles are used.

[Terry D]

Sorry. It's very unusual for a law to make such a glaring mistake in terminology.

So why are we allowed so many pump action and self loading rifles then? Is the law turning a blind eye?

Edit: I'm not being facetious, and the above may read that way. But what about the aforementioned S-16, the Skan Rifles etc, they're pump action! The Theoben SLR stands for "Self Loading Rifle". There's nothing in the law about it being self cocking. That brings many others into dispute without even mentioning the Drulov DU10 Eagle 5 shot, true semi automatic target rifle. Ok, that's not full power, but again the law as written mentions no power limitations at all.

Are all these section 5 now?

The SLR isn't 'self-loading', is it? You have to re-cock it to load it. Same for the S-16. Skan changed their design once the definition was clarified, and low-powered rifles aren't deemed to be a potential problem.

Of course there will always be interpretation based on perceived concerns, but the working definition has been established, along with a degree of latitude where this is deemed appropriate.

Overall, we have a workable law.

[tinbum]

The SLR isn't 'self-loading', is it? You have to re-cock it to load it. Same for the S-16. Skan changed their design once the definition was clarified, and low-powered rifles aren't deemed to be a potential problem.

Of course there will always be interpretation based on perceived concerns, but the working definition has been established, along with a degree of latitude where this is deemed appropriate.

Overall, we have a workable law.

So its ok to own, buy or sell a sub 12fpe skan?

[Terry D]

So its ok to own, buy or sell a sub 12fpe skan?

You mean one of the pre grip-action versions? I doubt you'd be prosecuted, but it's up to you.

[bigtoe01]

Terry

Last I read BASC cleared up the fact that sub12 semi auto is in fact legal, and right now its late for me to go search but it was right on this very forum.

They also cleared up you can NOT have a sec1 air rifle with a barrel under 305mm long as that is actually a sect 5, so that also meant any sub12 with a sub 305mm barrel that goes over 12 would not be classed as sect 1 but as sect 5...hence they get destroyed. However FX sold sub12 inch vermi's on FAC and I know of FAC super 10 K's also although the last one i heard about was re barrelled to 15inches to save it from the chop saw. I have a mate with a very nice Venom HW80 FAC, he has had it years....10 inch barrel, another one that was re barrelled to conform now clarification is to hand.

I think its more AMTA etc just deciding semi auto sub12 is a seriously grey area and not one the UK should be looking at, so best none are made here and none are imported for sale....thats how I see it and its fine with me that way. I do know of semi auto FX's in the UK however, all sub12.

If I want to shoot semi auto I do so in the USA when I visit....it gets the wanting out my system and I can live with single bolt feed for a few more years.

If someone can be bothered the info on barrel length and semi auto was in the firearms clarification thread from last year...its a monster thread so be prepared to go search for a while.

[DCL_dave]

So its ok to own, buy or sell a sub 12fpe skan?

Hi Nick,

I have a Skan R32 (bottom gun in this pic) ...it has a grip cocking mechanism, to use it you have to depress a button on the front of the action and shuttle the grip backwards to cock the mechanism and cycle the mag, then push it forwards to set the trigger and load a pellet, then pull the trigger...and this has to be done for each shot...it is not semi-auto by any definition!


...and besides, the mk2 Phoenix pictured above it is much quicker in use, but it is still manually cycled for each shot.

[tinbum]

Hi Nick,

I have a Skan R32 (bottom gun in this pic) ...it has a grip cocking mechanism, to use it you have to depress a button on the front of the action and shuttle the grip backwards to cock the mechanism and cycle the mag, then push it forwards to set the trigger and load a pellet, then pull the trigger...and this has to be done for each shot...it is not semi-auto by any definition!


...and besides, the mk2 Phoenix pictured above it is much quicker in use, but it is still manually cycled for each shot.

Thanks Dave, I was thinkng specifically about the pump action ones.