Why I am Beginning To Change My Mind About Sub12 Hunting

[Muskett]

I am comfortable with using 12ft/lbs air rifles, and so is the the Law, for taking the designated critters within the farmyard.
I am comfortable being a hunter and hold great respect for my quarry. I am realistic that its not a perfect world, and even with great diligence not ever outcome is always perfect. I strive to be as humane as practicably possible.


I realise its not for everyone, and some hold other views.

Humans have always hunted and taken a bounty from what nature provides. Its the natural way of things and those that wish to object to that I find weird; well a minority and a very alternative stand point. They are free to hold those views, but please can we have a bit less of the erroneous "morality high ground" baloney. If we were just vegetarians we wouldn't tolerate herbivores as they would be competing for our cereals. As it is modern farming uses pesticides on an industrial scale to provide our daily bread; just look at the bird population crash for the evidence.
I think hunters are more aware of the human impact on the natural world than most. Far more than those who live within the metropolitan cities and have no clue other than what they see on their TV's when a nature programme happens to be the entertainment that night.
I've put my view across plenty of times.

For 12ft/lbs air rifle hunting then shot placement is everything. What effective range is dependant on the skill of the shooter. The final decision is with the person pulling the trigger.
In truth shot placement is always the most important part, that and using enough "gun" to do the business. Or we could always just nuke them

[SuffolkRifle]

I am comfortable with using 12ft/lbs air rifles, and so is the the Law, for taking the designated critters within the farmyard.
I am comfortable being a hunter and hold great respect for my quarry. I am realistic that its not a perfect world, and even with great diligence not ever outcome is always perfect. I strive to be as humane as practicably possible.


I realise its not for everyone, and some hold other views.

Humans have always hunted and taken a bounty from what nature provides. Its the natural way of things and those that wish to object to that I find weird; well a minority and a very alternative stand point. They are free to hold those views, but please can we have a bit less of the erroneous "morality high ground" baloney. If we were just vegetarians we wouldn't tolerate herbivores as they would be competing for our cereals. As it is modern farming uses pesticides on an industrial scale to provide our daily bread; just look at the bird population crash for the evidence.
I think hunters are more aware of the human impact on the natural world than most. Far more than those who live within the metropolitan cities and have no clue other than what they see on their TV's when a nature programme happens to be the entertainment that night.
I've put my view across plenty of times.

For 12ft/lbs air rifle hunting then shot placement is everything. What effective range is dependant on the skill of the shooter. The final decision is with the person pulling the trigger.
In truth shot placement is always the most important part, that and using enough "gun" to do the business. Or we could always just nuke them

+1
Or go to 12 bore shotgun (but then, I've had 'flippers' with a shotgun) depending on shot number, OK to 75 yards

[Simonsays]

I am comfortable with using 12ft/lbs air rifles, and so is the the Law, for taking the designated critters within the farmyard.
I am comfortable being a hunter and hold great respect for my quarry. I am realistic that its not a perfect world, and even with great diligence not ever outcome is always perfect. I strive to be as humane as practicably possible.


I realise its not for everyone, and some hold other views.

Humans have always hunted and taken a bounty from what nature provides. Its the natural way of things and those that wish to object to that I find weird; well a minority and a very alternative stand point. They are free to hold those views, but please can we have a bit less of the erroneous "morality high ground" baloney. If we were just vegetarians we wouldn't tolerate herbivores as they would be competing for our cereals. As it is modern farming uses pesticides on an industrial scale to provide our daily bread; just look at the bird population crash for the evidence.
I think hunters are more aware of the human impact on the natural world than most. Far more than those who live within the metropolitan cities and have no clue other than what they see on their TV's when a nature programme happens to be the entertainment that night.
I've put my view across plenty of times.

For 12ft/lbs air rifle hunting then shot placement is everything. What effective range is dependant on the skill of the shooter. The final decision is with the person pulling the trigger.
In truth shot placement is always the most important part, that and using enough "gun" to do the business. Or we could always just nuke them

I couldn’t agree more. Well put.

[Artfull-Bodger]

The problem we have is no matter what pellet you use there is simply not enough energy at 12ftlbs to cause the massive trauma required to dispatch a quarry, so your reliant on placing a shot in the kill zone which will cause enough damage to the brain to kill instantly, which on a rabbit is roughly a 25mm zone behind the eye, made worse by small pellets that over penetrate, there was a sound reasoning behind the .22 for fur .177 for feather rule of thumb.

If your fieldcraft is good you can get close benefitting in both velocity and accuracy, and to me this is the real issue, just because your rifle shoots good groups at 50yds doesn't mean you should be shooting live quarry at that range, when you shot those groups you weren't balancing uncomfortably on the side of a bank or between branches, a light puff of a breeze can be enough to put your shot out of the kill zone at that range and you have no control over the wind, and pretending a heavy pellet is wind proof is nonsense as recent testing I have been doing is proving.

If you keep your ranges down to 40yds and under if you cant consistently hit a 25mm target at that range, use a fast moving lighter pellet that gives up it's as much of it's energy on impact and only take shots you are sure of then 12ftlbs is and has been adequate for quarry in the UK, tens of thousands of vermin and game are testament to that fact.

But we really should consider 12ftlbs rifles to be a minimum requirement because your pellet may be carrying as little as 6ftlbs when it gets to the target, and no one is going to pretend hitting a rabbit with 20ftlbs is not going to be preferable.

Keep your ranges short and shoot from positions you are stable in, or your going to leave an animal to die suffering.

[Muskett]

The Fur and Feather guide really stems from the fact that the .22 at such low velocities can feather plug on soft feathered birds such as pigeon. The plug effect can stop penetration to only a few mm's which when on a full crop is not enough to kill the bird outright. Often a pigeon will fly a 100m or so before dropping dead, if it drops dead at all.
The wound track between .177 and .22 isn't that huge a difference. Over penetration makes little difference as its the track wound that does the damage. At these low energy levels then there is little energy dump effect. Which is why perfect shot placement cannot be over emphasised as it is the most important for any successful outcome.
Deliver .177 or .22 with precision and both are equal. The .22 may stop faster but they can over penetrate too, there being so little in it all. All arguments are about marginals that make very little practical difference. I tend to use .177 due to its flatter trajectory and I've never known them to feather plug. However, the .22 "smack" is quite forthright in its own way.

Higher velocities everything changes. 12ft/lbs rifles are just enough for their intended use within the farmyard, which is why we have them.
Lastly, we now have the tools to head shoot consistently, which wasn't always the case 40 years ago. No longer is a central hit and farm dog to finish the job off enough as we can now do better than that.

[RichardH]

Airguns or certainly off ticket ones aren't any more powerful than they were 30 years ago

A power level that was suitable for rabbits at 25 yards then hasn't actually changed, new technology brings more accuracy which has encouraged people to push and push distances to in some cases stupid levels and means the viability of the whole thing has to be called into question.

Whenever this subject comes up the argument to make vermin control FAC only just becomes clearer.

[Jonjon79]

That's nothing wrong with taking small game and vermin with .177 sub 12.

Like with everything, you just work within the limitations.

[Barryg]

Lots of different opinions but the facts are still the same, shot placement is luck because you can't predict when a animal is going to move, here are some wild rabbits and even when they are still you don't know when they are going to shake their head and scratch and at 30 yards there are also other factors to consider, think how far a rabbit can move from the time you pull the trigger.
10.5-11 ft/lbs is for fun plinking and competitions, shooting live animals is controversial when you have to rely on luck.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1D_h...ature=youtu.be

[Geezer]

Airguns or certainly off ticket ones aren't any more powerful than they were 30 years ago

A power level that was suitable for rabbits at 25 yards then hasn't actually changed, new technology brings more accuracy which has encouraged people to push and push distances to in some cases stupid levels. Which they should stop doing.

Whenever this subject comes up the argument in favour of vermin control with 12 ft-lbs rifles at sensible ranges just becomes clearer.

Amended to reflect my views and experience (which is a lot less than some on here).

For many (most?) users, 15 yard farmyard rats should be the limit. Anything over 30-35 is either off bounds, or total expert territory, using top kit. Frankly, I would not try it (my longest measured successful shot with a springer is 33 yards, with a highly tuned custom .177" 77K, which I knew was on the edge, but the thing was blistering accurate, I was in a solid seated position, I knew the range, and there was no wind) but I have not spent hours with a top PCP and 20x scope off a bipod.

Power is overrated, though. Accuracy is the single biggest factor in wound ballistics. And calibre isn't very important. They all have pros and cons. And they all work.

And yes, some dead animals do keep going when dead. To add to the war stories, I have put a 165grsin Sierra 30-06 soft point straight into a deer's heart and one lung, causing catastrophic damage (on autopsy/butchering) and seen it run 30 yards, only dropping when round two broke the front shoulder. No-one would argue that a 30-06 is not a suitable short-range deer rifle. Similar with squirrels hit centre mass at 15-20 metres with a .22LR hollow point.

But decades of real life suggest that, at sensible ranges, used by sensible and adequately skilled people, 12 (or 8) ft-lbs is fine for pest control.

Seems to me that one advantage of FAC air is taking successful body shots at normal 25-30 yard ranges, giving more options to the user.

Right, football calling (and we are 1-0 up!).

[angrybear]

I am comfortable with using 12ft/lbs air rifles, and so is the the Law, for taking the designated critters within the farmyard.
I am comfortable being a hunter and hold great respect for my quarry. I am realistic that its not a perfect world, and even with great diligence not ever outcome is always perfect. I strive to be as humane as practicably possible.


I realise its not for everyone, and some hold other views.

Humans have always hunted and taken a bounty from what nature provides. Its the natural way of things and those that wish to object to that I find weird; well a minority and a very alternative stand point. They are free to hold those views, but please can we have a bit less of the erroneous "morality high ground" baloney. If we were just vegetarians we wouldn't tolerate herbivores as they would be competing for our cereals. As it is modern farming uses pesticides on an industrial scale to provide our daily bread; just look at the bird population crash for the evidence.
I think hunters are more aware of the human impact on the natural world than most. Far more than those who live within the metropolitan cities and have no clue other than what they see on their TV's when a nature programme happens to be the entertainment that night.
I've put my view across plenty of times.

For 12ft/lbs air rifle hunting then shot placement is everything. What effective range is dependant on the skill of the shooter. The final decision is with the person pulling the trigger.
In truth shot placement is always the most important part, that and using enough "gun" to do the business. Or we could always just nuke them

Eloquently put,
But with a view towards the high light above, a number of replies have mentioned the lack of impact trauma & over penetration, which is why for several years I have been annoying many on here by denouncing .177 & pushing .20 as what I consider to be the minimum calibre for hunting at sub 12, far less through shots which means all the energy, such as there is, has been transferred to the target.

Personally speaking having FAC I've stopped using sub 12 for shooting prey/vermin outdoors, although at reduced indoor range it still ticks the box.

[brian747]

I am comfortable with using 12ft/lbs air rifles, and so is the the Law, for taking the designated critters within the farmyard.
I am comfortable being a hunter and hold great respect for my quarry. I am realistic that its not a perfect world, and even with great diligence not ever outcome is always perfect. I strive to be as humane as practicably possible.


I realise its not for everyone, and some hold other views.

Humans have always hunted and taken a bounty from what nature provides. Its the natural way of things and those that wish to object to that I find weird; well a minority and a very alternative stand point. They are free to hold those views, but please can we have a bit less of the erroneous "morality high ground" baloney. If we were just vegetarians we wouldn't tolerate herbivores as they would be competing for our cereals. As it is modern farming uses pesticides on an industrial scale to provide our daily bread; just look at the bird population crash for the evidence.
I think hunters are more aware of the human impact on the natural world than most. Far more than those who live within the metropolitan cities and have no clue other than what they see on their TV's when a nature programme happens to be the entertainment that night.
I've put my view across plenty of times.

For 12ft/lbs air rifle hunting then shot placement is everything. What effective range is dependant on the skill of the shooter. The final decision is with the person pulling the trigger.
In truth shot placement is always the most important part, that and using enough "gun" to do the business. Or we could always just nuke them

, Commonsense MrMuskett well put, i use sub 12 fpe up to 45 yds and fac air .22 at 37fpe which is good for 70 yds in the right conditions, accuracy is the goal in all shots imho it does not matter the size of pellet or the power behind it its ACCURACY all the way.

atb brian

[Barryg]

I am comfortable with using 12ft/lbs air rifles, and so is the the Law, for taking the designated critters within the farmyard.
I am comfortable being a hunter and hold great respect for my quarry. I am realistic that its not a perfect world, and even with great diligence not ever outcome is always perfect. I strive to be as humane as practicably possible.


I realise its not for everyone, and some hold other views.

Humans have always hunted and taken a bounty from what nature provides. Its the natural way of things and those that wish to object to that I find weird; well a minority and a very alternative stand point. They are free to hold those views, but please can we have a bit less of the erroneous "morality high ground" baloney. If we were just vegetarians we wouldn't tolerate herbivores as they would be competing for our cereals. As it is modern farming uses pesticides on an industrial scale to provide our daily bread; just look at the bird population crash for the evidence.
I think hunters are more aware of the human impact on the natural world than most. Far more than those who live within the metropolitan cities and have no clue other than what they see on their TV's when a nature programme happens to be the entertainment that night.
I've put my view across plenty of times.

For 12ft/lbs air rifle hunting then shot placement is everything. What effective range is dependant on the skill of the shooter. The final decision is with the person pulling the trigger.
In truth shot placement is always the most important part, that and using enough "gun" to do the business. Or we could always just nuke them

It's interesting how different countries view what is acceptable to shoot with a airgun, a post over on the DWC was talking about shooting dogs with a Diana 54, I guess that you would disagree in the same way some countries would disagree with you.
Look at this quote.

March 9th, 2012, 1:13 pm #34
Umair, it shot placement. I am sure you have heard this, but when using a light rifle like you are it has to be exact. I get the same type of response from people here in North Dakota when I tell them I deer hunt with a .223. Don't worry about it. Use what you have and be as good as you can with it. Get as close as you feel safe to maximize your impact energy and shoot as straight and true as you can.

The rest of you guys, have you ever been over seas to one of the countries with dog troubles? I was deployed to Iraq, and when we moved into Balad Airfield the dogs were thick. Like squirrels in a park thick. Feral dogs like these aren't large critters, I would guess 30 pounds at best; and they have no fear of humans having been around them their whole lives.

I understand Umair's problem completely. He needs to keep his kids and family safe, but doesn't have appropriate fire power. What should he use, a spear? These dogs are hungry, people have food. They won't leave you alone. I would rather see a dog die slow than someone die of rabies. You guys know it destroys your nerves and brain, right?

Umair, please be safe while shooting these dogs. Maybe bring a shovel with for backup.

[Muskett]

I do believe in using enough gun.
The .22LR has been used to shoot nearly every beast on the planet. Some way unethical but still been done. The .22LR have the potential to kill an elephant, its been done, but to me only by an irresponsible idiot.
Then there is the right gun but too soft a bullet. The example that I know true is a shepherd who used a Webley revolver three shots on the head of a distressed sheep. The following day the sheep had recovered with three welts on its head, absolutely fine. The lead bullets far too soft and without much velocity for some reason.
Interestingly in the not so distant past British Officers, Police and Military, carried Webley pistols not just for the bad guys, but more commonly used to shoot rabid dogs and put maimed horses down.
Red Indians used quite low powered bows to bring down Buffalo. Just enough power to penetrate to the heart.

Shot placement and enough to reach a vital organ is all that is required. More gun is often just to compensate for error in placement. However, some tough animal's will for life is high and it takes a lot to bring them down; the African buffalo notorious for how tough they are which makes them so dangerous.

Airgun power varies considerably from only a few ft/lbs to military weapons of great power. I've had a grey squirrel jump at my face having five .22 pellets in its body fired from a Webley MKIII which were know to be pretty powerful. Its why I only head soot them now. Export rifles can easily be a lot higher than 12ft/lbs, your Diana example may have twice that power??? Enough to deal with a dog sized animal. More importantly is it legitimate to the law of the land??? Heck, Halal hunters do not shoot to kill as only a slitting of the throat of say a deer is religiously acceptable for human consumption.
There are some really weird ways used to harvest nature's bounty around the world, many are not legal in the UK. Many would make me uneasy.

So I'm not sure where we are going with this thread now. I know what I find acceptable, and keep to that. What other cultures do is up to them.

[mrto]

Unfortunately,the straight jacket of 12ftlbs legislation makes it impossible for the average shooter to easily tailor their gun's power output to be ideal for the required circumstances,(beyond certain distances)!

That said,though and as can be seen on a number of youtube air gun hunting channels, 12ftlbs is actually more than adequate on recognised air gun quarry out to relatively silly distances to obtain a clean kill.

It's the loopy 12ftlb trajectory that the skilfull shooter has to deal with that increases the challenge.

We,(air gun enthusiasts),of course have always known this!