Firearms saftey consultation - inculdes airguns & minature rifle ranges

[SuffolkRifle]

As for the mini-range for .22 rimfire and the mini-range for airguns being under the same ruling, sounds a bit daft - a fairground airgun 'range' (knock the 5 fingers down) the same rules as a live-fire?

[RobF]

As for the mini-range for .22 rimfire and the mini-range for airguns being under the same ruling, sounds a bit daft - a fairground airgun 'range' (knock the 5 fingers down) the same rules as a live-fire?

I'm not sure how they even can be. I think it's a widow from the definition of a mini range which mentions the shooting of airguns, but airguns can't be put on FAC (unless s1), and you can't get an FAC for them (because of that, and I have tried). You'd still be able to shoot airguns like you can at an HO approved FAC club, but shooting them on an non FAC range doesn't demand you need an FAC either. If you catch my drift.

It does point again to people who don't understand the act are the ones making proposals on the consultation. I'm not sure there's a way around that but hopefully the organisations who are consulted will explain that to the relevant committee.

[SuffolkRifle]

I'm not sure how they even can be. I think it's a widow from the definition of a mini range which mentions the shooting of airguns, but airguns can't be put on FAC (unless s1), and you can't get an FAC for them (because of that, and I have tried). You'd still be able to shoot airguns like you can at an HO approved FAC club, but shooting them on an non FAC range doesn't demand you need an FAC either. If you catch my drift.

It does point again to people who don't understand the act are the ones making proposals on the consultation. I'm not sure there's a way around that but hopefully the organisations who are consulted will explain that to the relevant committee.

That's the thing, but when I read the section on miniature ranges, it reads as though a 'fairground range' operates under the same rules as a 'live fire' miniature range, though private ownership of the two 'weapons' are under different conditions.

[angrybear]

That's the thing, but when I read the section on miniature ranges, it reads as though a 'fairground range' operates under the same rules as a 'live fire' miniature range, though private ownership of the two 'weapons' are under different conditions.

Yes you're correct they do both operate under the same rule, because members of the public are allowed to shoot on the mini-range,
private ownership conditions are neither here nor there for that purpose because the range operates under it's own rules,
Presumably in the past fairs did use .22 rimfire.

The points are;
1/ at the moment anyone can set up as a mini range & go out & buy S1 firearms & ammo "for that mini range" without need for a Firearms Certificate.
2/ at the moment the term mini rifle is not adequately defined to only mean .22 rimfire

[RobF]

Well both are defined by a certain extent, it has to adhere to the HO club criteria, and their guidance makes their interpretation clear.

So no, no one can just go out and start one because Sect 21 of the acts prevents some, HO rules on clubs would pick up others, and .223 wouldn't be deemed within interpretation.

https://assets.publishing.service.go...l_2016_v20.pdf

18. 5

Whilst there is no legal definition of a miniature rifle, other than one which does not exceed
.23 inch in calibre, it is generally accepted that this refers only to rifles firing .22 rimfire
cartridges (see also chapter 6). Persons using the range are exempt from holding a firearm
certificate only whilst using such miniature rifles and ammunition at such a range or gallery.
Home Office approval can only be granted to a miniature rifle club if it can adhere to the
Home Office’s club criteria.

[angrybear]

Well both are defined by a certain extent, it has to adhere to the HO club criteria, and their guidance makes their interpretation clear.

So no, no one can just go out and start one because Sect 21 of the acts prevents some, HO rules on clubs would pick up others, and .223 wouldn't be deemed within interpretation.

https://assets.publishing.service.go...l_2016_v20.pdf

18. 5

Whilst there is no legal definition of a miniature rifle, other than one which does not exceed
.23 inch in calibre, it is generally accepted that this refers only to rifles firing .22 rimfire
cartridges (see also chapter 6). Persons using the range are exempt from holding a firearm
certificate only whilst using such miniature rifles and ammunition at such a range or gallery.
Home Office approval can only be granted to a miniature rifle club if it can adhere to the
Home Office’s club criteria.

Are mini-ranges even covered by HO rules ?

Having watched video of the FMJ set up it was a berm about 6' high dug out of some waste ground nothing more
They had some fold flat tables piled up with mags & slabs of ammo while, what looked like the local gangster/drug dealers were hosing away with AR/M4 lookalikes as fast as they could pull the trigger,
didn't look all that HO approved to me.

"Generally accepted" is not a legal definition & nowhere Have I mentioned .223 HMR, WSM & WMR rimfire would be bad enough.

[Powderfinger]

Anyone holding a high-powered rifle at home will have security at least as good as their club plus a domestic dwelling is less easy to burgle than an uninhabited building. Have the Home Office never read The League Of Red Headed Gentlemen?

If a shooters on a range want to wear bad clothes and fire black rifles quickly that is not a problem unless they are posing a safety risk. The FMJ case was about a hazard to the public not aesthetics.

Although I agree with the golden rule "Don't draw attention to yourself".

But the most hazardous shooters I have met were middle aged, middle class blokes who have decided that due to decades of "experience" the safety rules are now optional for them...

[SuffolkRifle]

Yes you're correct they do both operate under the same rule, because members of the public are allowed to shoot on the mini-range,
private ownership conditions are neither here nor there for that purpose because the range operates under it's own rules,
Presumably in the past fairs did use .22 rimfire.

The points are;
1/ at the moment anyone can set up as a mini range & go out & buy S1 firearms & ammo "for that mini range" without need for a Firearms Certificate.
2/ at the moment the term mini rifle is not adequately defined to only mean .22 rimfire

This is the thing that is absolutely idiotic - if it comes to having to have a FAC to run a mini-range, then the airgun 'ranges' will close and not be able to return, so that term does need to be clarified. I did mention that when I filled out the form.
Yes, fairgrounds used to use .22 rimmies (father and uncle can remember using them) but obviously cheaper to use airguns nowadays.

[Powderfinger]

I remain curious as to whether any RFD would sell firearms and ammo to someone who turns up and says they run a miniature range unless they were from a well known local organisation (eg cadets) or a known local company (such as a range that operates at game fairs). I would be interested if someone runs a range under the miniature clause could post on here and tell us more.

[angrybear]

I remain curious as to whether any RFD would sell firearms and ammo to someone who turns up and says they run a miniature range unless they were from a well known local organisation (eg cadets) or a known local company (such as a range that operates at game fairs). I would be interested if someone runs a range under the miniature clause could post on here and tell us more.

Well the pure fact that the FMJ bloke had iirc 12 rifles & 47,000 rounds in his possession indicates that yes they will
That quantity of sales would keep an otherwise struggling dealer in business.

[Rutty]

I remain curious as to whether any RFD would sell firearms and ammo to someone who turns up and says they run a miniature range unless they were from a well known local organisation (eg cadets) or a known local company (such as a range that operates at game fairs). I would be interested if someone runs a range under the miniature clause could post on here and tell us more.

Powderfinger, take a look at what I wrote in post #17 of this thread. In one of the cases I’m aware of the RFD who supplied the firearms was fully aware that the individual involved had already had their certificate revoked. In cases where S11(4) has been misused it’s usually a bit more complicated than someone just rocking up and claiming to “operate a miniature rifle range” and flashing a certificate from The Showmen’s Guild, NSRA, Sportsmans Association or the like to back up their claim. NB such certificates have no legal standing. The FMJ Range was something of an outlier in that their conduct was bound to attract police attention sooner or later.

The problem with S11(4) operations is that the firearms and ammunition that they possess and expend are completely unaccounted for, they disappear from the licensing system.

As I said at post #17, there are organisations that utilise S11(4) correctly and responsibly, they should be permitted to continue doing so. However the section does require revision to at least require proper record keeping and scrutiny as well as an assessment of suitability of operators.

Rutty