Cheats

[Weevie]

I can see both points. However, if I was a junior competing against the coached lad without the benefit of my own coaching I suspect I'd be pretty annoyed. There's a time and place for coaching and encouragement. I don't believe that full blown competition is one of them.

Exactly. I wouldn't mind if this Dad had been willing to give advice to all and sundry but it was all whispered stuff.

It was the lack of respect for the spirit of HFT that got to me. It's meant to be a test of skill that involves steady and smooth shooting, wind estimation and rangefinding. The later two skills are meant to be the shooter's not his Dad's.

It won't be, not at Kibworth.

and Yep!

[Weevie]

Here's one for you, though. I shot Basingstoke this year with a bloke who plated the wrong target - I didn't realise he was aiming off. He wasn't in the running for a top spot so I gave him a point - he was happy, and I was happy. I shot Basingstoke last year (second HFT shoot, a nightmare) and saw someone watch their partner take aim at the wrong target, take the shot and drop the target, then instantly say; "that's a zero, I'm afraid". I figured that was pretty unsporting. What say you?

Cheers,

Absolutely bloody awful. In fact there was a thread, oh last year I think, from Sparky about just this very thing. The spirit of HFT is to prevent someone's silly mistake from losing them a point. Of course, that's not coaching that's just giving someone the best chance to avoid obscuring their talent with a silly mistake.

I saw what looked like a heated - or perhaps more appropriately frank - discussion on one of the pegs where 'the-peg-was-touching-the-tree-therefore-the-tree-was-the-peg'. It seemed straightforward, but someone was adamant that that wasn't the case. I didn't catch it all, but I did wonder in passing; "does it really matter that much?" "is it really that important?"

Well, what they should have done is ask a marshal.

If it was Mr Haas then I can just imagine the scene. For all his...um...eccentricities, Tony is a decent fellow at heart.

He just doesn't realise how close sometimes his entirely well meant banter gets to having his rifle put somwhere he'd have trouble getting the three point kneeling stance from!

Don't worry Tony, I'll always shoot with you!

[Neil.]

I know that in all competitive sports you will get cheats, some trying to stay on top of their game others as its the only way to do well.
How do we stop or limit people from cheating in shooting, i cant speak much about FT as not done enough of that, but over the 3 years i have been doing HFT i have seen plenty.
Some of this i have kept to myself some i have spoke about.Now do we sometimes not say anything not to affend or should it be brought to their attention that you wont stand for cheating.
I personally am going to bring it to their attention this year and mark the card accordingly then let them argue it out with the organisers.
How about if we highlight the things we have seen or heard so that people know what to look for.
Maybe then people will not think of cheating as people have more of an understanding of what goes on.
After all this is meant to be fun sport and its not like we are going to get a car for winning.

You want to try clay shooting....now theres some proper cheats.

[Acenorth.]

If a marshall saw an infringement on the peg at one stage does he approach the shooter to tell him?
I could walk up behind him and say "ay mate, you aren't touching the peg or I think you may be shooting the wrong target (if it is blatantly obvious)...
What happens if the shooter was at that split second about to pull the trigger and blames me should he pull the shot and miss.

This is a grey area for me and as marshalls are volunteers I dont want to ruin anybodys shoot, my shoot or any friendships in the package.

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Another thing that kev mentioned, I'm sure there are more than 1 or 2 cheats out there at the moment. Everybody on the circuit must have witnessed or been party to a slight bending of the rules in the last couple of seasons.

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With regards to asking a marshall to check a target after seeing it strike the centre of the kill I am one who has called this a few times. At redfearns I was shooting with Jeff and a another bloke (cant remember his name) but the 1st bloke hit the target at 2' oclock on the rim, Jeff the hit, what he thought was the centre of the target and queried it to me, i then did then same and saw my pellet hit bang in the middle. Now as both jeff and myself are almost certain we hit the centre of the kill we called a ceasefire and a marshall. We where the 1st 3 people to shoot that target so no other marks would have been there.
When the marshall went out he verified that there where 2 hits on the kill but also 2 splitters, ok thats all that Jeff and i nneded to know but at 40+yards you could only see the pellet marks on the kill and not the splitters. At what point do you stop this? After 20-30 people go through getting a 1 on a faulty target after blatantly hitting the kill thus pulling the target out of the competition??

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[RichardH]

As I dont shoot HFT feel free to tell me wind my neck in...

If some juniors father is coaching him round, even if he's infringing some rules surely that does no one any harm at all?

I am assuming he's a novice though rather than in the running for the junior championship

After all youngsters are the future of all the shooting sports

Richard

[rubberhubby]

When I shoot a hft course the only competition I have is with myself, I know that I will never be competing with the top flight shooters so I see no point in claiming a 1 point instead of a zero it's not life or death and the only person I will be cheating is myself.

The quote I will always remember when a a guy taking a miss very seriously and trying to claim a faulty target when the other 2 guys in his group knocked it flat was '' alright mate at the end of the day were shooting tin chickens in a wood it's not life or death,'' when I score a doughnut and think to myself did i hear just the slightest hint of metal then the above quote always brings me to my senses.

I must say that all the people I have shot around with over the last few years in club shoots, UKAHFT or Southern hunters have always been honest and I am proud to claim them as friends

[miffer]

I hate to say it, but it seems cheating goes on in any sport involving blokes! I used to do a lot of match fishing, and it was just the same- people baiting up before the whistle, fishing two hook rigs, getting their wives to smuggle a big eel down the river bank (in a pram!), failing to zero scales properly, slyly fishing in their neighbours swim- the list goes on...

It's not just the cheating though. It's the one upmanship that goes on with equipment. All the stupidly pricey gear and accessories- people paying thousands of pounds trying to get the edge on other blokes.

Even if the competition is at a low level, in a small local club for small money or a stupid plastic trophy, some blokes take it far too seriously.

I imagine if you entered a Tiddly Winks championships it'd be just as bad.

[Opal]

I'm surprised to hear about this in airgunning I know theres loads of cheats in other sports but airguns? who would be so childish to cheat in a non profit sport? really, I'm gobsmacked! in my opinion, very sad people reared the wrong way.

Throughout my life I have never had a friend/mate who has cheated in anything, I wouldn't let it happen..a second time. I know nothing about airgunning matches, don't wanna know now.

[Opal]

Of course it will Ryan. Its for the best cause. I for one, will be wearing my "Help the Heroes" wristbands.

Looking forward to that cup of tea you promised me at Anston last year.

Love yer Harley.

[rayowl]

The rule are the rules, if they are not clear then thats another matter but we must all accept them before we start the comp so that it really, with the possible exception of newbies who should be assisted, not by a handicap but put with an experienced competitor who would point out when they are not touching the peg or the trigger is over the firing line etc not wait until they have done these things then deduct the points.........I have seen this and the chap in question was not doning very well so he posed no threat to the deductee, all of which made it worse IMHO.
ATB
Tony

[pollythedog]

Just for starters people missing a target completly then saying 'oh just a one then' when i have seen the pellet hit the ground.

Interesting point here, I am slightly deaf at times in one ear ( don't ask me why it is at times!) On one shoot I did I declared a miss, but my buddy said he heard it hit the plate, now I thought I heard a stirke but also thought it was the guy on the lane next to me who shot simultaneously. Because of the possibility of a miss in my mind I stayed with it and had it put so on my card. But how often could a hit on a neighbouring lane be mistaken for a hit on ones own lane if firing at same time of course?

[RobF]

its the spirit of the thing that's important...i think that's important to keep in mind when marshalling.

as for plate/not plate... well the only way i can see of sorting that one out is to have some audible indicator such as a fishing bell or a visual one such as a bopper on the plate...if your really that worried about it... but i think if your looking at getting really tough with HFT then you would be fundamentally changing the sport...to me (having only shot a couple of external HFT events), it's not what it's about.

[Charlts]

its the spirit of the thing that's important...i think that's important to keep in mind when marshalling.

as for plate/not plate... well the only way i can see of sorting that one out is to have some audible indicator such as a fishing bell or a visual one such as a bopper on the plate...if your really that worried about it... but i think if your looking at getting really tough with HFT then you would be fundamentally changing the sport...to me (having only shot a couple of external HFT events), it's not what it's about.

Rob I think you're right mate, it's all a bit of fun. I can understand people taking it seriously as I do to, it's my only hobby now I can't play rugby and I'm a competitive person. I like to think I enjoy myself and shoot a course with a smile on my face whilst having a laugh with whoever I'm shooting with. The day I stop enjoying myself is the day I stop.

As said before some people do well honourably and some will do well by being a weasel. I'll always offer the friendly word if I see something being done wrong, whether the person I offer it to should know better or not and depending on how they take it will dictate my opinion of them.

Ryan

[Weevie]

As I dont shoot HFT feel free to tell me wind my neck in...

If some juniors father is coaching him round, even if he's infringing some rules surely that does no one any harm at all?

I am assuming he's a novice though rather than in the running for the junior championship

After all youngsters are the future of all the shooting sports

Richard

Nah Richard, I think this junior was rather handy actually, he was shooting with a Daystate Mk3 and he was using a range chart hung around his neck. This chap wasn't some newbie to the sport.

I've had a few PMs confirming what I suspected.

Besides, it was an official UKAHFT national competition not a club practice day or even a club fun competition. Coaching is fine at those sorts of events, well actually should be encouraged.

Doing well at a UKAHFT national is a massive boost to a Juniors confidence and means quite a bit to them (more probably than for an adult). If they see other kids getting told the ranges or what kind of windage to allow by their dads then it's got to be a bit of a put off.

[Gwylan]

Of course juniors should be coached, its how we all learn, but not at an official shoot, where they could affect points and positions. I'd be extreemly pi$$ed off if some snotty kid beat me, even if he was Little Lord Fauntleroy, and his Dad Terry Doe..!

Gus... PS there's no junior section in our league.