Dive Bottle Test - Short & Curly's?

[JerryD]

£61 my @rse.......they'd be making 20+% even if they bought at retail!





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[rabbitslayer]

£61 my @rse.......they'd be making 20+% even if they bought at retail!.

Yes Jerry and there's very little I can do about it and that was why I posted. Now they've got my bottle I have to pay or they scrap it - short & curly's.

And... even if I was to somehow get them back I'd still have to pay for the test and I wouldn't be surprised if they purposely damage the threads (if not already) so that any second opinions / tests would have the same outcome.

I've learnt my lesson and I'll just have to pay out this time. Will go elsewhere next time. But I don't know of any other local testers other than Parwins.

[rancidtom]

Yes Jerry and there's very little I can do about it and that was why I posted. Now they've got my bottle I have to pay or they scrap it - short & curly's.

And... even if I was to somehow get them back I'd still have to pay for the test and I wouldn't be surprised if they purposely damage the threads (if not already) so that any second opinions / tests would have the same outcome.

I've learnt my lesson and I'll just have to pay out this time. Will go elsewhere next time. But I don't know of any other local testers other than Parwins.

Follow the appeal procedure.

[rabbitslayer]

Follow the appeal procedure.

IMPARTIALITY AND COMPLAINTS STATEMENT

APPEALS & COMPLAINTS

IDEST operates a formal appeals process should a customer believe that their Cylinder Inspection results, following an exhaustive discussion with the Test Centre, are not well founded.
Any appeal must be made in writing to the IDEST Administration Office within one month of the date of the Inspection and substantiated with evidence, any grounds to make such appeal.

And as I see it, that's the issue, I haven't any evidence. I can't prove a thing... They have the equipment and no matter how much I go on about how little use it had and how careful I was with it, I can't show that the threads were OK before I handed them over. Unfortunately, I think it'd be a LOT of time poorly spent and for no gain. You may think I'm being defeatist, and if I'm overlooking something please point it out to me.

Thanks again.

[RobF]

£61 my @rse.......they'd be making 20+% even if they bought at retail!





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By the time you add postage and the work then it’s not far off. What do you want to save the £10 of vat and the trade discount?

The thing holds 4500 pounds per every square inch. Threads fail. I’ve had one go on a bottle that was only on its 2nd test. Same deal. Unless you think you’ve been caught in a wholesale scam for what seems to be about £20 profit and only affects two people who ever come in here then the likelihood is the thread has failed and the simple fix is to get those qualified to fix it to fix it.

Sod it, have a tantrum, save £11 and put the thing in with a set of grips. It’s only 300 bar. In fact why bother buying new? See if you can get one of the 1/2 dicky out almost out of test bottles on social media and save yourself more.

£60 on something that can let go and cover a football field in under a second when it does...

[Aimstraight]

..... Threads fail. I’ve had one go on a bottle that was only on its 2nd test. Same deal.....

Out of interest was that the DIN outlet?

Think it would do us all a favour if the OP asks the test centre to confirm where in the BS/EN procedures it requires this test. I looked on the SITA website and the various downloads are scant in detail (deliberately so as to have to buy the BS/EN to find out), it just refers to 'valve threads' and cylinder threads. So for an airgun valve do they also test the thread for the gauge? All this would be useful to know, as we are paying for the service, it should be transparent. Good to know if all centres do check all threads (I doubt it somehow, the guage threads can differ on valves).

Would it be possible for the DIN outlet threads to be comprised by silicone grease (from an o-ring seal)? Not suggesting that here, but just wondering. Probably many other potential causes including dirty threads, excess force, marginal production tolerance, poor thread on mating parts, test centre handling.

Presumably when a cylinder is filled to 300 bar, the connection is tight enough (but not excessive) to compress the interface o-ring, and then the 300 bar pressure on the face of the connectors is transferred through the threads. Similarly when filling an airgun from the cylinder. Hence all mating threads need to be in very good condition/very well matched.

[RobF]

Out of interest was that the DIN outlet?

Think it would do us all a favour if the OP asks the test centre to confirm where in the BS/EN procedures it requires this test. I looked on the SITA website and the various downloads are scant in detail (deliberately so as to have to buy the BS/EN to find out), it just refers to 'valve threads' and cylinder threads. So for an airgun valve do they also test the thread for the gauge? All this would be useful to know, as we are paying for the service, it should be transparent. Good to know if all centres do check all threads (I doubt it somehow, the guage threads can differ on valves).

Would it be possible for the DIN outlet threads to be comprised by silicone grease (from an o-ring seal)? Not suggesting that here, but just wondering. Probably many other potential causes including dirty threads, excess force, marginal production tolerance, poor thread on mating parts, test centre handling.

Presumably when a cylinder is filled to 300 bar, the connection is tight enough (but not excessive) to compress the interface o-ring, and then the 300 bar pressure on the face of the connectors is transferred through the threads. Similarly when filling an airgun from the cylinder. Hence all mating threads need to be in very good condition/very well matched.

I can't remember asking to be honest. I had assumed it was the neck thread, but thinking of it.

Yes, I've seen thread stretch on airgun cylinders which are screwed on and off with pressure in the cylinder because the pressure releases before it is all the way home. So it could very well happen on the outlet under certain circumstances. I would say that's a definited concern if they are using spacers to seal 200 bar adapters in 300 bar bottles... this means there's less threads engaged and therefore more pressure per thread, and therefore force per thread which could make them stretch perhaps.

The threads on the outlet are fairly common, DIN. There's some 232 neck threads which are less common now and the heads are no longer made... I know this because we were warned about it when I last filled, if the threads go the bottle is shagged because they can't get a new head to fit.

The go-no-go is something that appears to be recent and differs from tests abroad. I saw it mentioned in some technical article when people were having arguements about testing here vs abroad.

I really get why people aren't happy when a bottle fails. But why reach for the conspiracy handle when it's just a simple test for your safety? Why would a shop risk pissing you off over £10-20 to them when you'd be doing that a year in fills for the next 5-10 years plus whatever else you spend there...?

[rabbitslayer]

Thanks Jerry..

[rabbitslayer]

By the time you add postage and the work then it’s not far off. What do you want to save the £10 of vat and the trade discount?


The thing holds 4500 pounds per every square inch. Threads fail. I’ve had one go on a bottle that was only on its 2nd test. Same deal. Unless you think you’ve been caught in a wholesale scam for what seems to be about £20 profit and only affects two people who ever come in here then the likelihood is the thread has failed and the simple fix is to get those qualified to fix it to fix it.

Rob, firstly, I can't help but say that I would appreciate it if you could be little less judgemental of my character and not so condescending in your comments.


Secondly, I'm fully aware of the dangers involved with this type of equipment which is why I took it in to have it tested. I don't need a certificate in order to fill it as I can get that done privately if needed and I have never transported a bottle other than when purchased and bringing it home or when taking it to be tested. So, if my main priority was to save a few quid over and above the safety of myself and others, I wouldn't have bothered taking it in the first place.


I find that generally, members on here are knowledgeable, experienced and helpful which is why I asked for views and opinions on my experience with a local test centre. My opening post was mainly centred around:

A - How a valve that had had such little and very light use could fail and how could I avoid damage in the future
B - Was it right / fair that a test centre can keep / destroy the equipment if one doesn't authorise / pay for parts and labour.


If the valve has failed then OK scrap it, but why can't they return the bottle without the valve? And yes, perhaps I would like to take it elsewhere i.e. Parwins if that's my preference - why shouldn't I?

Sod it, have a tantrum, save £11 and put the thing in with a set of grips. It’s only 300 bar. In fact why bother buying new? See if you can get one of the 1/2 dicky out almost out of test bottles on social media and save yourself more.


£60 on something that can let go and cover a football field in under a second when it does...

If you are directing this at me I find your comments rude and offensive. I can assure you I'm no skinflint and didn't mention and would never consider a DIY job using secondhand dodgy parts as you describe - How did you cook this up in your head?..

Rob, I'm not belittling the dangers: HPA is nasty stuff if it goes wrong.


The point is that a test centre has to remove the valve anyway to inspect the bottle - no call for muckling it at home with pliers, they have the right kit and training. They get the valves wholesale price, and removing and refitting the valve is part of the test process. Why does this test centre in question have to charge over the odds for something that cost them a lot less than we would pay and would have to do anyway? It's the valve that's mullered, not the bottle so why are they not even returning the bottle sans valve?


There are 2 test centres around Peterborough: one is a pain and Parwin's are good... Paul will show you what's wrong, no withholding, just a fair test process with fully transparent information.

Thanks Jerry. My thoughts entirely. Parwins next time for sure.

But sometimes on these threads we can make it seem this is a casual item or people can get that idea.

And sometimes people just jump to conclusions without taking the time to read through and digest before pulling triggers.

If they return the bottle it's out of test it involves the OP taking it away, which as I am lead to believe is against the transport regulations which is what the test is about....

Transporting an empty bottle (evident due to no valve) is against transport regs? Really?

You can fill HPA at home without a test, it's not illegal or anything.

Not when the bottle has no valve fitted.

It's when you move them that matters. The cylinders have to be either in test to be moved, or destroyed.

Again, you can't fill a cylinder without a valve assembly so completely harmless. No one has suggested they return the complete unit (bottle and valve assembly) just return the parts that are OK if that's the customers wish.

Like an MOT there's a certain set of regulations for testing, and on failure there's a certain set of regulations for when that happens.

They don't keep the car or scrap it if you don't authorise them to carry out the repairs - Repairs to the car are carried out wherever the customer wishes

The reason they have to be destroyed is so when they are scrapped someone doesn't need to inspect them to make sure they're safe for recycling, they are no longer cylinders, just 3 bits of cylinder.

And why should a perfectly good, safe cylinder be scrapped. If I were a business, I'd be tempted to buy and fit a new valve and sell on - would that not cross your mind?

The centre is a business. They get things in at X price, they do Y work and charge Z. I don't see why it should make a loss for it's time and expertise to give someone a £10 or so discount. They'd still have to charge VAT.

Who's asking for a discount and I'd always expect to pay VAT. I'm not a business but I and others on here work hard for their money so why should I not question something I feel 'MAY' be unfair and taking what I've worked hard for?...

Now there's a really simple way of solving this, instead of wasting all this time on the internet someone could phone Idest and ask, or failing that 2-3 test centres and see what they say about giving a bottle back when it's failed. Once you have that info then you can move on.

FFS!.. Wasting time on the internet?.. this is an airgun forum and we are discussing an issue relating to airguns. You have over 13500 posts on here, so should I assume you are nothing but a mega internet waster? Honestly...

It would be interesting because I had a cylinder fail once and I didn't get to keep the head... but then I'm not that tempted to do a diy assembly after buying a cylinder and I suspect the for the costs involved it wouldn't have been much of a saving.

The DIY route again... I never mentioned DIY.. You could have kept it as a spare and had the centre fit it if / when one failed later on. That's not penny pinching it's called a common sense saving. In business they call it a cost saving and my money is as important to me as it is to them..

Safety should always come first, no doubting that whatsoever but that doesn't mean common sense should be locked away either. Wake up and smell the silicon grease..

ATB

[krisko]

Did you overtighten the fillstation? Or tried to screw it in under the wrong angle damaging the treads? I am of the opinion that who broke it should fix it. Is it the same shop where you get your fills?

Ask Faber if it is common to fail the first test lol


I had similar but different. Pre test and valve service, the valve was not leaking but out of test -expired diving bottle (no surface valve)

post service and passed hydro test etc: Slow leaking leaking bottle unable to fully shut the valve. Not impressed. Probably they swapped the valve to a leaky one, now I have to crank up the valve real tight for it to seal. madness.
you should buddy up with few more and get a loan large N2 cylinder and share it, do your fills yourself! Screw them
This way the cylinder will not be your responsibility.

[RobF]

Rob, firstly, I can't help but say that I would appreciate it if you could be little less judgemental of my character and not so condescending in your comments.


Secondly, I'm fully aware of the dangers involved with this type of equipment which is why I took it in to have it tested. I don't need a certificate in order to fill it as I can get that done privately if needed and I have never transported a bottle other than when purchased and bringing it home or when taking it to be tested. So, if my main priority was to save a few quid over and above the safety of myself and others, I wouldn't have bothered taking it in the first place.


I find that generally, members on here are knowledgeable, experienced and helpful which is why I asked for views and opinions on my experience with a local test centre. My opening post was mainly centred around:

A - How a valve that had had such little and very light use could fail and how could I avoid damage in the future
B - Was it right / fair that a test centre can keep / destroy the equipment if one doesn't authorise / pay for parts and labour.


If the valve has failed then OK scrap it, but why can't they return the bottle without the valve? And yes, perhaps I would like to take it elsewhere i.e. Parwins if that's my preference - why shouldn't I?





If you are directing this at me I find your comments rude and offensive. I can assure you I'm no skinflint and didn't mention and would never consider a DIY job using secondhand dodgy parts as you describe - How did you cook this up in your head?..





Thanks Jerry. My thoughts entirely. Parwins next time for sure.





And sometimes people just jump to conclusions without taking the time to read through and digest before pulling triggers.





Transporting an empty bottle (evident due to no valve) is against transport regs? Really?





Not when the bottle has no valve fitted.







Again, you can't fill a cylinder without a valve assembly so completely harmless. No one has suggested they return the complete unit (bottle and valve assembly) just return the parts that are OK if that's the customers wish.





They don't keep the car or scrap it if you don't authorise them to carry out the repairs - Repairs to the car are carried out wherever the customer wishes





And why should a perfectly good, safe cylinder be scrapped. If I were a business, I'd be tempted to buy and fit a new valve and sell on - would that not cross your mind?





Who's asking for a discount and I'd always expect to pay VAT. I'm not a business but I and others on here work hard for their money so why should I not question something I feel 'MAY' be unfair and taking what I've worked hard for?...





FFS!.. Wasting time on the internet?.. this is an airgun forum and we are discussing an issue relating to airguns. You have over 13500 posts on here, so should I assume you are nothing but a mega internet waster? Honestly...





The DIY route again... I never mentioned DIY.. You could have kept it as a spare and had the centre fit it if / when one failed later on. That's not penny pinching it's called a common sense saving. In business they call it a cost saving and my money is as important to me as it is to them..

Safety should always come first, no doubting that whatsoever but that doesn't mean common sense should be locked away either. Wake up and smell the silicon grease..

ATB

Get over yourself.

Did I quote you? No. So why assume this my reply was directly aimed at you.

Generally it was aimed at the suggestion that this was a scam, that a much cheaper solution was available, and that the idea was a head could be fitted by just buying one off the internet. No one specific.

I explained that having been in exactly the same position that cylinder that's failed cannot be returned because the regs are designed to stop transportation of cylinders deemed unsafe, which was what I was lead to believe and have accepted.

If you didn't ask the question about why you can't have the cylinder only then the logical question would be to ask the test centre the question. If you didn't get the answer you wanted then you could get a second opinion from another centre or possibly Idest.

Transporting an empty bottle not in test is the issue. Your bottle is not in test. It has failed.

I am lead to believe the regs are The Carriage of Dangerous Goods (Classification, Packaging and Labelling) and Use of Transportable Pressure Receptacles Regulations 1996.

Info on the go-no-go here : https://www.scubadivermag.com/propos...inder-testing/

I am also lead to believe that a cylinder without a head will not be stamped as passed as the head could be retro fitted afterwards which has failed.

So hopefully that answers your doubt on that point, but if not, phone a test centre/Idest.

Of course you can't fill a bottle without a valve. That's why the test includes the valve. Not sure what point you're trying to make.

The law on cars and cylinders are not exactly the same. I was trying to demonstrate how the test works as an analogy not saying every rule applies to both in the same way. Sorry if you didn't follow that.

So to answer your questions directly to you:

How a valve that had had such little and very light use could fail and how could I avoid damage in the future?

It can happen, and you could use grease to protect the threads and make sure that if you fill a cylinder you use an adaptor which takes the pressure stress when you unscrew, not the DIN.

Was it right / fair that a test centre can keep / destroy the equipment if one doesn't authorise / pay for parts and labour?

As I am lead to believe by 2 centres, yes, and have stated what one said when the same thing happened said. But you can check with another or Idest. Idest are going to be the no.1 source of info, if you doubt one test centre why take another's word?

Yes. I waste a lot of time on the internet. The 1000's of posts I have here is just one forum, I run another where I have plenty more, and also run a few other shooting related websites. What I know from that experience is that unless someone is willing to put their name and professional qualification out on the line then a huge amount of what is said is said without citing a source, and (as in my own example) it's often heresay. The best place to find out about the actual facts is to contact the official parties directly, which you could have done by now, instead of wasting time on the internet arguing about it and getting nowhere. You could have actually found out I wasn't right, the test centre wasn't right and had what you want returned and a new head fitted by another shop. Or you could have got all angsty about it and posted again.

The reason why I post about this is because over the years I have seen people take shortcuts with HPA all to save time, effort and small amounts of cash... sticking cylinders in vices to get adaptors in and out, getting hold of cylinders that would fail a 2 year visual and putting new heads on them filling and painting them so they look new and have plenty of life for the 5 year then selling them. I've also seen people weld handles to cylinders, weld gauge adapters to cylinders, and tap their own quick fills into cylinders, or fit HPA to co2 (the latter sending a valve through someone's leg). And there are plenty on social media selling out of test gear.

So I'd suggest as it's Saturday, phone the other place up and have a chat. Then you can come back and post something useful like you expect others to instead of just having a hissy fit because you don't like what someone on the internet has posted.

[JerryD]

By the time you add postage and the work then it’s not far off. What do you want to save the £10 of vat and the trade discount?

The thing holds 4500 pounds per every square inch. Threads fail. I’ve had one go on a bottle that was only on its 2nd test. Same deal. Unless you think you’ve been caught in a wholesale scam for what seems to be about £20 profit and only affects two people who ever come in here then the likelihood is the thread has failed and the simple fix is to get those qualified to fix it to fix it.

Sod it, have a tantrum, save £11 and put the thing in with a set of grips. It’s only 300 bar. In fact why bother buying new? See if you can get one of the 1/2 dicky out almost out of test bottles on social media and save yourself more.

£60 on something that can let go and cover a football field in under a second when it does...

Rob, I'm not belittling the dangers: HPA is nasty stuff if it goes wrong.

The point is that a test centre has to remove the valve anyway to inspect the bottle - no call for muckling it at home with pliers, they have the right kit and training. They get the valves wholesale price, and removing and refitting the valve is part of the test process. Why does this test centre in question have to charge over the odds for something that cost them a lot less than we would pay and would have to do anyway? It's the valve that's mullered, not the bottle so why are they not even returning the bottle sans valve?

There are 2 test centres around Peterborough: one is a pain and Parwin's are good... Paul will show you what's wrong, no withholding, just a fair test process with fully transparent information.



.

[RobF]

Rob, I'm not belittling the dangers: HPA is nasty stuff if it goes wrong.

The point is that a test centre has to remove the valve anyway to inspect the bottle - no call for muckling it at home with pliers, they have the right kit and training. They get the valves wholesale price, and removing and refitting the valve is part of the test process. Why does this test centre in question have to charge over the odds for something that cost them a lot less than we would pay and would have to do anyway? It's the valve that's mullered, not the bottle so why are they not even returning the bottle sans valve?

There are 2 test centres around Peterborough: one is a pain and Parwin's are good... Paul will show you what's wrong, no withholding, just a fair test process with fully transparent information.

.

I know. But sometimes on these threads we can make it seem this is a casual item or people can get that idea.

If they return the bottle it's out of test it involves the OP taking it away, which as I am lead to believe is against the transport regulations which is what the test is about.... you can fill HPA at home without a test, it's not illegal or anything. It's when you move them that matters. The cylinders have to be either in test to be moved, or destroyed. Like an MOT there's a certain set of regulations for testing, and on failure there's a certain set of regulations for when that happens.

The reason they have to be destroyed is so when they are scrapped someone doesn't need to inspect them to make sure they're safe for recycling, they are no longer cylinders, just 3 bits of cylinder.

The centre is a business. They get things in at X price, they do Y work and charge Z. I don't see why it should make a loss for it's time and expertise to give someone a £10 or so discount. They'd still have to charge VAT.

Now there's a really simple way of solving this, instead of wasting all this time on the internet someone could phone Idest and ask, or failing that 2-3 test centres and see what they say about giving a bottle back when it's failed. Once you have that info then you can move on. It would be interesting because I had a cylinder fail once and I didn't get to keep the head... but then I'm not that tempted to do a diy assembly after buying a cylinder and I suspect the for the costs involved it wouldn't have been much of a saving.

When I take my bottles in, I trust the guys who do the work because they're the qualified ones and they don't want to upset me because I then keep going back for air... I know it's upsetting, I've had 2 fail, one never been mistreated and was just 10 years old, but it happens and that's why there is a test for all these bits because it does happen.