Why I am Beginning To Change My Mind About Sub12 Hunting

[wobbly bob]

I am not much influenced by other people’s thinking. I tend to look at the facts and decide for myself. However, it hardly furthers the public understanding of science to promulgate the idea, in the complete absence of any empirical evidence, that animals may feel more pain because they are stupid.

The general consensus is that humans evolved when we freed up some thinking time by ditching the veggies and climbing to the top of the food chain. On the other hand, no one would disagree with the idea of reducing animal suffering as far as possible. And few would argue that a woody taken with a head shot has not had a better deal than a battery hen.

[Barryg]

I am not much influenced by other people’s thinking. I tend to look at the facts and decide for myself. However, it hardly furthers the public understanding of science to promulgate the idea, in the complete absence of any empirical evidence, that animals may feel more pain because they are stupid.

The general consensus is that humans evolved when we freed up some thinking time by ditching the veggies and climbing to the top of the food chain. On the other hand, no one would disagree with the idea of reducing animal suffering as far as possible. And few would argue that a woody taken with a head shot has not had a better deal than a battery hen.

LOL. I think that you are on thin ice if you start disagreeing with Darwin's Rottweiler RD when it comes to evolution general consensus our thinking is evolving all the time now veganism is the fastest growing lifestyle in the UK and perhaps the western world, so perhaps hunters should also be evolving and be using more powerful airguns in a effort to be more humane.

[Muskett]

Veganism is all very nice but its a lifestyle choice fashion only brought about because living standards are high enough to allow such luxury. Humans put under starvation stress will revert to eating just about anything. Just as true is that the eating of the quantities of meat that we do now is also a result of affluence.
Our natural diet should be mostly grain, fruit, nuts, berries, and vegetable matter, with a small part consisting of meat. Similar to bears, with the odd beetle and seafood dish thrown in. Unlike bears we do not need to hold huge fat reserves to hibernate the winter.

The improvement in modern 12ft/lbs air rifle's virtues should be sold more that the range for pest control hasn't changed, its still farmyard ranges, maybe adding no more than another 10m with practice. That more precision should allow us to be even more humane with our delivery and be applauded for that fact. However, for target shooting this improvement in accuracy allows longer range target shooting to be done just for the fun of it all, but it is not a reason to extend the practical hunting range to the same extent. The effective, humane, practical hunting range remains virtually the same as its always been.
An individuals hunting range is and will always will be limited to an individuals ability to deliver with confidence the pellet, whatever calibre, into what is a very small lethal kill zone.

A good sportsman will practice, test, and practice again, until confident and sure. Realistic of their abilities and show restraint by staying well within those abilities. Its the least one can do to show respect for one's quarry.
If you are not happy with 12ft/lbs for hunting use then don't do it. That is an individuals call.

[Artfull-Bodger]

]Veganism is all very nice but its a lifestyle choice fashion only brought about because living standards are high enough to allow such luxury. Humans put under starvation stress will revert to eating just about anything. Just as true is that the eating of the quantities of meat that we do now is also a result of affluence.
Our natural diet should be mostly grain, fruit, nuts, berries, and vegetable matter, with a small part consisting of meat. Similar to bears, with the odd beetle and seafood dish thrown in. Unlike bears we do not need to hold huge fat reserves to hibernate the winter.
[/B]
The improvement in modern 12ft/lbs air rifle's virtues should be sold more that the range for pest control hasn't changed, its still farmyard ranges, maybe adding no more than another 10m with practice. That more precision should allow us to be even more humane with our delivery and be applauded for that fact. However, for target shooting this improvement in accuracy allows longer range target shooting to be done just for the fun of it all, but it is not a reason to extend the practical hunting range to the same extent. The effective, humane, practical hunting range remains virtually the same as its always been.
An individuals hunting range is and will always will be limited to an individuals ability to deliver with confidence the pellet, whatever calibre, into what is a very small lethal kill zone.

A good sportsman will practice, test, and practice again, until confident and sure. Realistic of their abilities and show restraint by staying well within those abilities. Its the least one can do to show respect for one's quarry.
If you are not happy with 12ft/lbs for hunting use then don't do it. That is an individuals call.

Yep, Vegans and Veggies are only Vegans and Veggies because they have never been starving!

[Barryg]

Yep, Vegans and Veggies are only Vegans and Veggies because they have never been starving!

What about Shaolin monks they don't live the high life, could you endure what they do as routine?
I wonder what they would be like at airgun shooting

[Muskett]

Probably very good.
The "monk" system is only an organised and often disciplined living system. All depends on the cultural routes, the resources available, and the levels of conflict. Most religions stem from the need for a constructive human cooperation operation; set of rules to live and work by as a joint venture. Humans take a long time to get to maturity so require a sophisticated system to get there. Individual people don't do well, but as as an organised mass humans do very well.

There are plenty of cultures and religions that give animals respect, even to the point of not killing them. Having said that it only works if there is the resources to allow that to happen. Soon breaks down when human's don't have enough.

Think this is well off track to farmyard vermin control by air rifle. Farm Cats and Working Terriers would be more relevant. is a 12ft/lbs air rifle as humane as a Terrier's crunch on a rat?

Shot one fox last night, though saw two. Gordon the farmer lost three chickens this morning. Its either young foxes getting kicked out by their parents or a Fox "dump" on our patch. Looks like I have my work cut out for the next few days.

[JME]

I stopped hunting a few years back now, I’ve tried .22, HMR and FAC Air (under supervision of a ticket holder) but my own hunting was always sub 12ft lb air mainly PCP but also with springers.

I’m not bullshitting here (and I may have been lucky rather than skilful) but I never had a runner during my hunting days. I didn’t take a shot many times as I didn’t feel 100% and I’ve clean missed the rabbit a few times, but I’ve never hit a rabbit and wounded it. 99% was .177 the rest .22.

In my very limited experience if I stayed within my limitations / ability and didn’t take chances where the odds were against me then sub 12ftlbs was enough to produce a clean and humane kill.

I struggle now with shooting and fishing in terms of ethics, so go cycling instead

[danco1987]

LOL. I think that you are on thin ice if you start disagreeing with Darwin's Rottweiler RD when it comes to evolution general consensus our thinking is evolving all the time now veganism is the fastest growing lifestyle in the UK and perhaps the western world, so perhaps hunters should also be evolving and be using more powerful airguns in a effort to be more humane.

A more powerful air rifle is not necessarily more humane. 12ftlbs in the brain is more humane that 24 ftlbs in the stomach. People have been hunting with 12ftlbs air rifles for decades, very successfully.

I don't agree with you about western thinking evolving. Westerners now no longer even use their brains anymore, social media is taking over our thinking, people prefer to stay inside, watch celebrity love island and be keyboard warriors sprouting complete carp about topics they have no understanding of, instead of going out and understanding the countryside and the environment around us.Just because veganism is a growing trend doesn't mean it's the right one.

Field craft is the most important element in hunting and accepting there is a chance of things might not go to plan no matter what tool is being used, doing everything you can to minimise that and deal with it as swifty as possible if it happens - that's the most humane way of doing things. We are dealing with pests at the end of the day and harvesting meat, free range and often great quality meat.

Go tell the Hadza hunter gatherers in Tanzania or any other traditional tribes on this globe that their bows are no longer considered "humane" anymore by us self righteous westerners and that their successful hunting so far has all been down to luck and they need more power. See what they think of that.

[angrybear]

I am not much influenced by other people’s thinking. I tend to look at the facts and decide for myself. However, it hardly furthers the public understanding of science to promulgate the idea, in the complete absence of any empirical evidence, that animals may feel more pain because they are stupid.

The general consensus is that humans evolved when we freed up some thinking time by ditching the veggies and climbing to the top of the food chain. On the other hand, no one would disagree with the idea of reducing animal suffering as far as possible. And few would argue that a woody taken with a head shot has not had a better deal than a battery hen.

Well that's rubbish,
Humans are omnivores, that is physically demonstrated by our teeth which have evolved to be both sharp meat cutting & flat vegetable /cereal grinding.
Primitive Humans were nomadic hunter gatherers, long before they became settled farmers.
Since Humans have become settled farmers the amount of meat in our diet has increased because it's constantly available where as hunting is not always successful.

Animals raised by intensive farming (like battery hens) do not miss what they have never known, any more than a yob raised in inner city tower blocks misses walking through rolling woods & mountains when he has never known that lifestyle.
However to capture & cage "wild" animals is a totally different matter.

Do birds & animals feel pain ? yes of course they do, which is why we as so called "superior" creatures should go out of our way to ensure that they suffer as little as possible, when we harvest them for food or eliminate them as vermin.

Sub 12 hunting can be perfectly acceptable & humane when it is done within sensible limits, but it can also be completely unacceptable when those limits are not respected.
Personally speaking I prefer to reduce/remove those limitations by only hunting with FAC.


Vegan/vegetarian - primitive descriptive term for the village idiot who cannot be taught to hunt, fish or light fires.

[Barryg]

Well that's rubbish,



Vegan/vegetarian - primitive descriptive term for the village idiot who cannot be taught to hunt, fish or light fires.

Well that's rubbish, LOL






Also you guys need to brush up on your understanding of evolution

DEAN C. says he has REDUCE his wounded shots dramatically when going to .177 sub 12. I wonder what the wounded shots were before.

[secretagentmole]

Well that's rubbish, LOL






Also you guys need to brush up on your understanding of evolution

DEAN C. says he has REDUCE his wounded shots dramatically when going to .177 sub 12. I wonder what the wounded shots were before.

If we had evolved to the point where meat was no longer necessary then our teeth and digestive system would have evolved to match, they have not, end of argument!

Might I suggest you revise your knowledge of evolution?

[Barryg]

If we had evolved to the point where meat was no longer necessary then our teeth and digestive system would have evolved to match, they have not, end of argument!

Might I suggest you revise your knowledge of evolution?

Are you seriously saying that we NEED meat in our diet? if you are then you need to look at the people who are vegans these days it includes many champion boxers, a president of the USA, very intelligent people, World strong men, very long lived people, beautiful women and film stars, athletes of all types and so on,
Don't forget if you believe we evolved we were once fish and going a long time back before that bacteria.

I am not sure what you mean about digestive system as we have a long intestine like a herbivore can you eat meat that has gone off raw like a true carnivore can?

Muskett, do you think that Invertebrates like slugs feel pain like vertebrates ?

[secretagentmole]

Are you seriously saying that we NEED neat in our diet? if you are then you need to look at the people who are vegans these days it includes many champion boxers, a president of the USA, very intelligent people, World strong men, very long lived people, beautiful women and film stars, athletes of all types and so on,
Don't forget if you believe we evolved we were once fish and going a long time back before that bacteria.

I am not sure what you mean about digestive system as we have a long intestine like a herbivore can you eat meat that has gone off raw like a true carnivore can?

Muskett, do you think that Invertebrates like slugs feel pain like vertebrates ?

Yes we do need meat, we have not evolved to extract all the nutrients we need from a vegan diet, which is the major reason why most people getting b12 injections are vegan.

https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Vi...hProfessional/

Vegetarians
Strict vegetarians and vegans are at greater risk than lacto-ovo vegetarians and nonvegetarians of developing vitamin B12 deficiency because natural food sources of vitamin B12 are limited to animal foods [5]. Fortified breakfast cereals are one of the few sources of vitamin B12 from plants and can be used as a dietary source of vitamin B12 for strict vegetarians and vegans.

[Barryg]

Yes we do need meat, we have not evolved to extract all the nutrients we need from a vegan diet, which is the major reason why most people getting b12 injections are vegan.

https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Vi...hProfessional/

Vegetarians
Strict vegetarians and vegans are at greater risk than lacto-ovo vegetarians and nonvegetarians of developing vitamin B12 deficiency because natural food sources of vitamin B12 are limited to animal foods [5]. Fortified breakfast cereals are one of the few sources of vitamin B12 from plants and can be used as a dietary source of vitamin B12 for strict vegetarians and vegans.

It is obvious that vegans don't have problem with the lack of b12 these days you only have to look at today's vegans, yes in supplements but thats evolution in the old days you could get b12 from the walter and unwashed veg along with Typhoid

[Muskett]

Invertebrates, all living systems have a damage control report system. Heck even plants. I've got a prolapsed disc and medded up to my eyeballs to counter the pain, but what level other living systems has is well beyond my knowledge. But its not nothing. How that translates into a "bad day" then ask that organism.

The law for invertebrates gives them few rights. Nor does the Law to more sophistical animals like rats which we use some pretty nasty nerve agents on, as we do insects. Fish generally suffocate once landed on industrial fishing ships. As humans when we want something we generally get it and pretty practical and efficient than any real concern over the welfare of what we are taking.
On deer the heart lung shot is lethal but may take a good few seconds for the beast to realise its dead. Same with cutting the throat for Halal meat.

Don't get me wrong if you want to be a vegetarian or vegan go for it, just don't lecture. Its quite doable to have a healthy diet from it if supplements are used or the body has adapted sufficiently. Same goes for Eskimos Inuit who have adapted to a high meat and fat diet with little vegetable matter. i do worry that Vegans may put their children health at risk in their pursuit of lifestyle choice, because it might deny something important that a well balanced diet that includes animal stuffs might have. A good bit of liver and kidney has some super trace elements, just like fish. I want a bit of everything in my diet, including the fruit and veg.
Again, please, Vegan or vegetarian is no more ethically superior to anything else.

Lastly, when I was suckling milk from my mothers tit as a baby, I'm sure I wasn't thinking: "this animal milk fat smoothy tastes sht, can't wait until I'm old enough to go vegan".

We are running two threads here.
Think we have answered the 12ft/lbs bit.
Meat eating? Vermin control?
Vegan and Vegetarianism?? If you want to go through the list of what issues would arise if humans were vegan, then most cows, pigs, chickens, and sheep might have a say in that. Or not as they wouldn't exist. And humans might look more goat than human.