Why I am Beginning To Change My Mind About Sub12 Hunting

[lensman57]

When I went down the FAC route, in ~2002, I was struck by the increase in 'certainty' when shooting rabbits. 30ftlb does provide more certainty of a clean kill, than the 11+ftlb power level does. Prior to that it was imperative, if you wanted to reduce the chances of wounding - and who doesn't - you had to be, not just confident in your kit, but assured in your kit.

A 12ftlb rifle has a place in the shooter's armoury that is unmatched by any other. But there are times, and more times than we'd like, where a 30ftlb rifle is a better bet.

I think that you are the only person who grasped what I was trying to convey. Thanks. Shoot a rabbit or a squirrel in the head/brain with a .22 sub 12 and see it kick and kick and kick ( yes sometimes not ). Shoot them with a .22 FAC or a .22 LR and just watch them drop without as much as a twitch. I think the case is very clear. Anyhow we all have to make our own judgements.

A.G

[Muskett]

Interestingly I have had some "I'm very dead but the rest of my body doesn't realise it", with my .17HMR recently. On head shot rabbit the result of the .17HMR is colossal, but I often get great leaps and twitching from the carcass. I think my .22LR produce more "roll over" with less final twitch. Much must be in the threat flight mode the rabbit is in before being hit. Changes during the year too, so some must be the energy levels in the rabbits. Odd things happen.

I have always thought 12ft/lbs was only just enough and its all in shot placement. For around the farm buildings them 12ft/lbs has an important role. 14 to 18ft/lbs would make "shureness" a little easier, if only for the flatter trajectory. I shoot .177 but if I had a bit more power/velocity then it wouldn't take much for me to switch to .20 or .22. Practice and knowing your combo is what pays off in the end. The more shooting you do, loads on paper, the better; its all shootig so whats not to like

[bighit]

I think that you are the only person who grasped what I was trying to convey. Thanks. Shoot a rabbit or a squirrel in the head/brain with a .22 sub 12 and see it kick and kick and kick ( yes sometimes not ). Shoot them with a .22 FAC or a .22 LR and just watch them drop without as much as a twitch. I think the case is very clear. Anyhow we all have to make our own judgements.

A.G

I have seen a rabbit with no head that was shot by a .17hmr still "running" on youtube as have other members on here .

I shoot loads of rabbits in the brainbox with my .22lr and they still kick and kick and kick . it's the nervous system.

If you hit them in the brain and destroy the brain the nerves may still be active . That's the way it is .

i have chest shot rabbits and had them drop stone dead,no movement (.22lr)

Ted from Teds holdover has a video on it .






Google "disinhibition .headshot animals " and his video is there . ( I hope this is not classed as linking to dead stuff )

[jumbuck]

I have seen a rabbit with no head that was shot by a .17hmr still "running" on youtube as have other members on here .

I shoot loads of rabbits in the brainbox with my .22lr and they still kick and kick and kick . it's the nervous system.

If you hit them in the brain and destroy the brain the nerves may still be active . That's the way it is .

i have chest shot rabbits and had them drop stone dead,no movement (.22lr)

Ted from Teds holdover has a video on it .






Google "disinhibition .headshot animals " and his video is there . ( I hope this is not classed as linking to dead stuff )

I shot a bunny years back with a .22lr and watched it run about 20yds with it's head bobbing on the ground stone dead!!!!!
Let's face it bunnies are highly strung creatures

[Muskett]

bighit, most interesting post. Makes a lot of sense to me.
As a Deer Warden I have to dispatch a good few deer. My method is a explosive brain shot. It can take a good while for the body to realise its very dead which is no help when there are witnesses to Bambi's demise.

I consider air rifle pellets be it .177 or .22 as a stiletto stabbing rather than some explosive grenade going off inside. Shot placement is everything. I suspect it takes at least 18ft/lbs to generate some kind of meaningful hydraulic destruction effect.

[bighit]

bighit, most interesting post. Makes a lot of sense to me.
As a Deer Warden I have to dispatch a good few deer. My method is a explosive brain shot. It can take a good while for the body to realise its very dead which is no help when there are witnesses to Bambi's demise.

I was always told it was stored up energy and that as they are skittish they are ready to move at a milliseconds notice. When you took the brain out ,you let the energy escape via the muscles .

Maybe that is the pre programmed bit

[Benelli B76]

This flapping around after death is quite common in chickens I have dispatched. My mate Pat Yoko told me of a Cape Buffalo shot with a 375 Holland and Holland and it ran over 100 yards before dropping. When butchered its heart was found to be destroyed. Its thought the muscles in the body and legs keep the blood pumping around for a while. What a subject to get on !

Baz

[keithy]

I have a similar feeling, 12 ft is JUST enough for hunting but Marksmanship has to be top notch. However for .177 12 ft lb is enough as at 55yds the pellets jsb heavies, just go straight thro a rabbits head. In .177 fac air, more power is a complete waste of time. Sub 12ftlb .22 is a noticeable improvement on bunnies but range has to be known exactly for a clean kill. I am currently filling the FAC application form in and will be going for .22 at 30ftlb and .25 at 45ftlb. Some will say why not go for rimfire or hmr but you will almost inevitably get a richot some time!! There is plenty of housing within half a mile radius of where I shoot.

[robs5230]

I converted to .177 in sub 12 for all my hunting a few years ago.
Without doubt shot placement is key.

But..... what I've found is that most .177 pellets do over penetrate. My thinking on this has lead me to use JSB express in .177 but actually at lower power.

I run all my springers at 10.5 with express. The energy transfer with the lighter pellet is staggering. No over penetration, much more of a visible "mess" and cleaner kills.

So in my mind its not about greater power. Its getting the combination of the rifle power and pellet choice right.

[Barryg]

Without doubt shot placement is key.

How do you get a animal to keep still every time while you shoot it?

[FPoole]

I've shot some squirrels of late with a sub 12 ft. lb. .177 JSB Exact. Bottom line is, if you are going to shoot a squirrel with a 12 ft. lb. gun, expect it to do some acrobatics. In my experience, it's impossible to be 100% certain of a clean kill. Even at 15-20 yards you just never know when the squirrel will may slightly move it's head. I've waited for ages on the perfect time to shoot and have still had them move slightly. I think they were still kill shots, but it does make me think about it very hard. I shot one out at 25 m and was certain I'd hit the spot, but the thing did some very strange twitching. Head and chest were flat on the ground, but the rear end was standing up still and the tail was straight up and doing this little curl and uncurl thing with the tip of the tail. I ran out to it to put in another shot, but it was obviously dead. The pellet passed through right between the eye and ear on both sides with the top of the skull ruptured a bit. Squirrels are solid muscle and it would take a cannon to drop one, if they weighed a couple hundred pounds.

[rhyslightnin]

I've shot some squirrels of late with a sub 12 ft. lb. .177 JSB Exact. Bottom line is, if you are going to shoot a squirrel with a 12 ft. lb. gun, expect it to do some acrobatics. In my experience, it's impossible to be 100% certain of a clean kill. Even at 15-20 yards you just never know when the squirrel will may slightly move it's head. I've waited for ages on the perfect time to shoot and have still had them move slightly. I think they were still kill shots, but it does make me think about it very hard. I shot one out at 25 m and was certain I'd hit the spot, but the thing did some very strange twitching. Head and chest were flat on the ground, but the rear end was standing up still and the tail was straight up and doing this little curl and uncurl thing with the tip of the tail. I ran out to it to put in another shot, but it was obviously dead. The pellet passed through right between the eye and ear on both sides with the top of the skull ruptured a bit. Squirrels are solid muscle and it would take a cannon to drop one, if they weighed a couple hundred pounds.

Be a very scary animal if it were medium dog size, they are definitely hardcore tough creatures.

[Blackrider]

Be a very scary animal if it were medium dog size, they are definitely hardcore tough creatures.

"With sharp pointy teeth" !

[sandyman1963]

Practice practice and more practice. Sitting on a range and getting good better and dammed good is a start.

Then ask around your area for permission to place targets on different parts of the land this will help to learn the wind issue along with shot placement.

Once mastered start again as practice and more practice is better than none.

Once confident then go hunting but always always remember what you are shooting at feels pain and does not deserve to suffer. After all would you like having a pellet stuck in you unroll you die.

I like believe that I’m a good shoot but always strive to improve as practice and more practice helps.

With the new rifles coming out we are getting some dammed good accurate rifles that are great and help the shooter no end. But no matter how good your kit is you are the one pulling the trigger.

A must have are good field skills for with out them you are stuffed and again it is all about practice.

My old man used to take me out hunting and every time I trashed his stalking I would have to run around a field with my springer above my head until he was sure his point has been made.

He no matter how much I begged him let my pop my first animal until he was 100% sure I would kill it and cause no issues for the animal.

No one in this world is a perfect shot but every shooter can strive to improve and improve some more.

[bighit]

I shot a bunny years back with a .22lr and watched it run about 20yds with it's head bobbing on the ground stone dead!!!!!
Let's face it bunnies are highly strung creatures

Yep. I see that a lot too. not all do it or do it that you notice . I get some that "swim " their way back down the holes . some areas I shoot have holes all around each other so they have lots of options to get back down below .