are modern pellets good enough?

[ballisticboy]

Modern pellets are basically the same design as they were around 100 years ago, just made more consistently and accurately on modern machinery. As a result of the design not changing they still have high drag giving low energy retention and poor wind behaviour and ballistic properties meaning that if the pellet and barrel are not a perfect match you get a shotgun group size.
Still, if shooters are happy to keep buying the same old stuff why should the manufacturers bother to change anything?

[angrybear]

Well the design has changed, back in the 70's all I remember is dirty squat things with ribs/grooves ie marksman/spitfire look.

now we have the smooth profile ie JSB, with a multitude of different radius heads, some pointed, some hollow point, short skirts, long skirts or with a cast waist like the Bisley Superfield/H&N FT or more slug shaped like the logun penetrator.

But the basic diabolo/shuttlecock shape works so the design will remain based around it, and tins are the obvious container to supply them in.

[rapidresponse1]

I think there much better quality

[Spitzer]

The quality of todays pellets is far better than say 40 years ago, if you look at JSB for example, and H&N's Sniper Light and Sniper Magnum plus those tin alloy projectiles.

Crosman were probably the first manufacturer in the 90's to offer superbly accurate hunting and field target pellets with their cardboard boxed Premiers in .177 .20 and .22 It's a pity they don't do those anymore.

[Tone]

The quality of todays pellets is far better than say 40 years ago, if you look at JSB for example, and H&N's Sniper Light and Sniper Magnum plus those tin alloy projectiles.

A friend at the club found quite a few 'Marksman' untouched boxes of .177 pellets in his dads attic. He gave me a box to try so I though Id give them a go as I remember buying them in their red boxes way back when.

Indoors bench rested, zeroed with JSB Exact giving a group of approx 5p diameter - first @Marksman pellet went low and right by a couple of inches, they all went roughly in that direction with a group spread of approx 1&3/4" .

So yes, i think pellet design and manufacture have improved massively, still room for improvement? always

[bozzer]

As a result of the design not changing they still have high drag giving low energy retention and poor wind behaviour and ballistic properties meaning that if the pellet and barrel are not a perfect match you get a shotgun group size.

I think the ability of the manufacturers to consistently meet the desired quality of some forms of air rifle shooting is below that required standard.

FT and HFT shooters are looking for domed head style pellets that will retain accuracy out to 50m. These guys are looking for under 18mm groups at 50m ( 55 yards ) ... FT. Ideally 12mm.

Most batches will probably have 6 to 8 out of 10 pellets that can achieve that. That leaves 2 to 4 that can't. So that gets targets shooters buying more batches to find that magic batch that gives them 10/10 or 19/20 that does give that consistent accuracy. I don't think there are great batches that have all good pellets and bad batches that have all bad. There are just less bad in the good batches.

Most ( virtually all ) of these batches will give a 'reasonable' accuracy at @ 40m. Let's say @ 1 inch at that range. So most shooters are happy with that.

I'm sure you can still get the Crosman Prems in boxes.

[bozzer]

I hate to go on ( obviously I don't ) ...

... but that actually adds weight to my comments on how the Tin Chicken sports have gone over the last 30 years.

Both sports have concentrated on having stable holds for the majority of shots ( sitting and prone ). Equipment has been allowed to improve, whilst retaining those stable stances. In a lot of ways the equipment development has added to the stability ... or retaining stability when courses have tried to take shooters out of their comfort zone ( hamsters etc ).

So by keeping those very stable stances, and allowing equipment advancement, the only way to make the targets more challenging for the best has been to take targets out further and/or make kill zones smaller.

This then puts more emphasis on every pellet being of a high standard and available accuracy with each pellet paramount. So at 55 yards it's very important that each pellet is of a very high standard. Maybe too high a required standard than the pellet manufacturers can consistently produce at the rates that they need to.

Hence the target guys testing batch after batch looking for that magic sub 12mm batch at 55y ( every pellet ).

Add in a bit of wind and even the most stable of batches are flying all over the place and it can become guesswork.

Listen to a lot of the talk from the target guys about the importance of one target in an entire year. They will say that one target over a year can be the difference between Champ or Runner Up. Hence a lot of discussion about calling targets etc.

How many targets must be missed in a year by that rogue pellet that just isn't as good as the others. so it just misses that 40mm 55y target in a tad of wind, or that 15mm kill at 25y?

I've long since said that a better target sport would be one with closer targets and relaxed kills but with more shooting skill involved ... more proper kneelers and standers. That wouldn't rely so much on having the mega batch of pellets that will all do 12mm at 55y. There would be less wind lotteries. There would be more shooting skill.

Sadly, it won't happen because the sports have such low attendance numbers Nationwide that an emphasis has had to be put on volume of shooters rather than quality of shooting. Hence stable stances for the majority of shots ... and long courses/small kills ... and the magic batch of pellets.

[RustyBuzz]

I've long since said that a better target sport would be one with closer targets and relaxed kills but with more shooting skill involved ... more proper kneelers and standers. That wouldn't rely so much on having the mega batch of pellets that will all do 12mm at 55y. There would be less wind lotteries. There would be more shooting skill.
.

Some very wise words I feel

[Geezer]

I think the point with boxed Prems is that it used to be that the ones in tins came from a mix of dies, but the boxes came from a single die, marked on the box. So FT types would work out which die shot best in their rifle and stock up.

These days, it’s I think either the case that the boxes now contain pellets from a mix of dies, or that the dies are so worn that there is no significant difference in accuracy between pellets from different dies.

To return to the original question, I am old enough to remember (early 80s) when the best pellets were Mount Star/Beeman Silver Jets and Jets (if you could find the latter), Eley Wasps, and RWS Superpoints.

No wonder there was space in the market for the likes of Normay/Bimoco Vipers (I went through a phase with them, believing that a pellet shaped like a toadstool must be a good idea; it wasn’t), Sabos, Prometheus, etc etc.

The 80s progressively saw the arrival of increasingly high-quality pellets, responding to demand from FT and serious hunters.

The arrival of Premiers at the end of the 80s/start of the 90s seemed an important moment, like a new level of consistency had been reached. Suddenly it seemed like all the serious shooters used them.

I’m not honestly sure that today’s high-quality pellets are significantly better than those early Premiers.

In summary, over the last nearly 40 years, the best pellets have hardly got any better (and the worse ones are still rubbish). Which is a bit sad.

Except I’m pretty sure that any advance would have to go hand in hand with changes to rifles’ pressure curves and (especially) barrel twist rates. You’d have to re-engineer the “weapon system” not just invent a better projectile.

[Muskett]

bozzer has a so very valid point of when consistency gets too important that luck becomes the difference between the top ten shooters. When some of that is the pellet then a sport will eventually have prolems.
When podium place comes down to a rogue pellet then thats a problem.
When targets get smaller than what the combos are capable of, group size wise, then thats a problem.

I have an issue when heart beat is the overiding differential and greater than the equipment. If FT and HT shooters had to run 100m betwen targets then few would hit anything because the targets are so small.
Contorted position and holds that take an age to get into is to me target shooting not practical or real field shooting.

Both FT and HT are established sports and long may the circuit have fun and continue. I do worry that when equipment and technique levels are less than luck the sport will struggle. Kit should be very secondary to skill. Targets must always be doable with the equipment, and reflect skill. A cource of fire should be long enough to find who is shooting well enough to win.

As I don't shoot these disceplines I can't say more.

[MrChipShoulder]

I have tested AA 8.4 4.52mm diabolo fields with differing damaged skirts.
I shot them over 20 yards into card targets.
I was looking for single hole, 5 shot groups.
I could get single holes with perfect pellets, but the damaged ones were out by as much as the damage.

So as far as I am concerned, damage is a bad thing.
That is why I swoped over to 8.4 4.52mm JSB, just as good as AA, but with out a 3rd of a tin damaged!!

And no, JSB are NOT the same as AA, just look at the skirts side by side (from behind)

[RobF]

bozzer has a so very valid point of when consistency gets too important that luck becomes the difference between the top ten shooters. When some of that is the pellet then a sport will eventually have prolems.
When podium place comes down to a rogue pellet then thats a problem.
When targets get smaller than what the combos are capable off group size wise then thats a problem.

I have an issue when heart beat is the overiding differential and greater than the equipment. If FT and HT shooters had to run 100m betwen targets then few would hit anything because the targets are so small.
Contorted position and holds that take an age to get into is to me target shooting not practical or real field shooting.

Both FT and HT are established sports and long may the circuit have fun and continue. I do worry that when equipment and technique levels are less than luck the sport will struggle. Kit should be very secondary to skill. Targets must always be doable with the equipment, and reflect skill. A cource of fire should be long enough to find who is shooting well enough to win.

As I don't shoot these disceplines I can't say more.

The positions don’t take ages to get into. That’s a myth. I can and have got into position, ranged and dropped 2 targets in under 30 seconds in national competitions.

Biathlon style competitions would be interesting but at the top level more and more shooters are doing cardio work and other things to improve fitness because it helps on shot anyway, so it’s unlikely to change many of the top shooters.

[Spitzer]

Bozzer, I am pretty sure Crosman stopped production of the boxed Premiers some years ago. Only the tinned ones of 500 are available nowdays and to be honest the quality is rubbish in comparison.
Years ago when they made boxed Prem's, I also used the tinned Crosman points in a .22 fac Rapid. They were great. Not so nowdays, I bought a tin recently online and the quality and accuracy is disappointing.

Update - and... I am wrong... Yes, Crosman still do boxed Premiers ! I've just looked on their US website. They also do a copper coated variety too.

Not seen any premiers in the UK though.

[bozzer]

The Crosman Premier 0.177 7.9gr in the boxes were still available recently. I'm sure Ramsbottom sell them but only the heavies in 10+gr ... but still in the boxes at 1250 per box.

Crosman did a few deals with the odd rifle manufacturer ( Webley etc ). The name Accupell started appearing in Webley tins.

There are a number of tins now with Premier written on them. If you look closely you'll probably see that the tins also say ... Ultra Magnum ( 10.5gr ) ... Super Point. They tend to say ... Premier ... across the top of the tin. Not Crosman Premier.

I think you'll find that you can still get the Crosman Premier 0.177 in a box. The boxes still say Crosman Premier.

[bozzer]

Solware used to sell the 0.177 boxed Crosman Premier 7.9gr.

Look on their webpage under pellets. Try page 3.