Filler Question.

[loiner1965]

Somehow this thread seems to have degenerated into a WTF are you talking about, tac' kind of thing. I'm not disputing the wisdom in the Greener book, I have it myself. Nor the collective wisdom of the bp metallic cartridge shooters, I'm one them as well. I bleeve that the initial discussion was aimed at the likelihood of leaving a LARGE air space, say a couple of inches, or more, in a muzzleloading rifle that may, and indeed, is well-proven, to cause ringing or bursting of the barrel in which it takes place. This can happen by inadvertently short-loading and failing to push the bullet or ball down past the usual circle of crud that develops after a few shots, particularly in a patched ball load. Or shooting a squib load in the case of a percussion gun, then removing the nipple and pouring some powder into the breech without reseating the ball or bullet afterwards.

I've seen a .50cal Hawken rifle visibly bulged beginning about four inches down the barrel for a distance of around three inches in a case like that. It was the view of the gunsmith there at the time that it was only the massive construction of the barrel prevented it from busting open - right where the left hand was holding the forend. Checking the position of the bullet by using the range rod, and ensuring that it was firmly down on the charge would have spared a £750 rifle from the scrap heap.

not at all tac.......
we are discussing fillers and what we / others are using.
for instance,
i will put one of my east india company F version on ticket so i can make the loud stick bang and asked on another forum what they recomment.
Some use 110gns of bp in a paper cartridge with a .690 ball loaded sharpe rifle style.
the legend mr Bill Curtiss suggests 120 gn of bp, then using a thick wad inserted in the muzzle then place the ball on top with loads of lube then place another thick wad on top of that, he then says using your ram rod you gently push the whole lot down the barrel on top of the powder.
Another suggested a small load of 50 gns of bp with the same amount of a filler on top. then a .730 ball with a 20 thou patch loaded on top.
we all have different ways on reaching , hopefully a safe goal.

[tacfoley]

not at all tac.......
we are discussing fillers and what we / others are using.
for instance,
i will put one of my east india company F version on ticket so i can make the loud stick bang and asked on another forum what they recomment.
Some use 110gns of bp in a paper cartridge with a .690 ball loaded sharpe rifle style.
the legend mr Bill Curtiss suggests 120 gn of bp, then using a thick wad inserted in the muzzle then place the ball on top with loads of lube then place another thick wad on top of that, he then says using your ram rod you gently push the whole lot down the barrel on top of the powder.
Another suggested a small load of 50 gns of bp with the same amount of a filler on top. then a .730 ball with a 20 thou patch loaded on top.
we all have different ways on reaching , hopefully a safe goal.

As demonstrated by Mike Beliveau on his duellist1954 YouTube channel.

[loiner1965]

seen his educational videos before.....excellent to watch
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...86&FORM=VDQVAP
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...A&&FORM=VDRVRV

[Abasmajor]

My original intent when first posting this thread, was to try and establish whether black powder substitutes such as Pyrodex or 777 typically used in muzzle loading revolvers and classed as propellants are subject to the same safety risks associated with air spaces as black powder loads when used with lighter loads in the same firearms.

I was also curious to find out if anybody had any real evidence that accuracy might be compromised if the projectile were to be seated some way below the mouth of the chamber which would be the case if a filler were not be used with a lighter load.

Although I have learned a lot from all those who have kindly taken the time to provide experienced input, I'm still not really sure if black powder substitutes can be treated in the same way as nitro powders in respect to the need for fillers or indeed if anybody has any real evidence of improved accuracy if the projectile is nearer to engaging the rifling when loading the chamber.

Any further feedback would be much appreciated.

Brian

[loiner1965]

My original intent when first posting this thread, was to try and establish whether black powder substitutes such as Pyrodex or 777 typically used in muzzle loading revolvers and classed as propellants are subject to the same safety risks associated with air spaces as black powder loads when used with lighter loads in the same firearms.

I was also curious to find out if anybody had any real evidence that accuracy might be compromised if the projectile were to be seated some way below the mouth of the chamber which would be the case if a filler were not be used with a lighter load.

Although I have learned a lot from all those who have kindly taken the time to provide experienced input, I'm still not really sure if black powder substitutes can be treated in the same way as nitro powders in respect to the need for fillers or indeed if anybody has any real evidence of improved accuracy if the projectile is nearer to engaging the rifling when loading the chamber.

Any further feedback would be much appreciated.

Brian

i find using bp with a wad as better accuracy than 777 to be honest.
777 doesnt like to be compressed as in loading in a revolver as you cannot duplicate the loading pressure consistantly.....not tried it with a loading tower although i do have one.
i found no difference if i seated closer or further away from the forcing cone but my pistol shooting is not the best anyway.....sorry for wandering off your initial question

[tacfoley]

i find using bp with a wad as better accuracy than 777 to be honest. 777 doesnt like to be compressed as in loading in a revolver as you cannot duplicate the loading pressure consistantly.....not tried it with a loading tower although i do have one. i found no difference if i seated closer or further away from the forcing cone but my pistol shooting is not the best anyway.....sorry for wandering off your initial question

I totally agree with Mr Loiner. The whole idea of using a filler - something that was not done originally, BTW - is to bring the ball up level with the mouth of the cylinder with the aim of reducing the 'jump' from chamber into the forcing cone. IF your load, say, 25gr of BP OR any of the subs EXCEPT T7 does not fill the chamber, then putting in a known measure of filler such as Crisco, coucous or semolina, then the ball. will do it. This is a modern development - there is no mention that I can find in any documentation of the day that makes mention of ANY kind of filler when loading a BP revolver, and I'm getting my information from a gentleman who owns the largest BP gun store in the Pacific north West of the USA - who also happens to have over sixty years of BP shooting experience, and is a very famous and well-respected figure in a nation of at least ten million BP shooters. I leave it to you to imagine the hassle of loose-loading any BP revolver with powder, filler and ball at a time when you could easily drop in a combustible paper cartridge. By the time you had figured out how to do all that you were probably full of either bullet holes or arrows - maybe both.

As noted by Mr Loiner AND the Hodgdon loading manual, T7 does NOT like to be compressed. So loads have to be figured out to minimize it happening.

So the answer is - use a filler if you've a mind to, the same goes for a wad, either home-made of bought. Having determined the amount of load and filler that achieves just that and sets the ball on the load so that it's level with the mouth of the chamber, or don't - I don't, but others do. Back in the day, revolvers were loading using combustible paper cartridges - I still make them and shoot them. Dropped into the chamber, they are just squozed down into it by the full use of the loading ram until they stop - there is no need to try and squirt the load out of the nipple holes.

But don't leave a gap in a BP revolver.

If you do, please tell us what happened next, or better still, do it on Youtube so we can all see what happens when you touch off that load of 25gr of BP in what is effectively a very short pipe bomb.

Good luck with that.

[loiner1965]

i use 25gn swiss no 3 and a 1/8 wad in my remington 1858.
the wad is only there to stop gas cutting on ball ( my theory lol )
tou dont need to but ive always done it......if i used a longer wad as in shotgun sizes the ball would be seated closer to cone but its more expensive and accuracy is the same.