Licence free, What is an air rifle, What is a pistol?

[angrybear]

But still entirely irrelevant.

Except it’s not either or over it’s either or under the lengths.

[F5(aba)any firearm which either has a barrel less than 30 centimetres in length or is less than 60 centimetres in length overall, other than an air weapon.

If it has a barrel under 300 or is under 600 in length. It doesn’t need to satisfy both. Otherwise it would say that by using the word ‘and’, which it doesn’t.

As snap shot says it is an air weapon so doesn’t matter anyway.

And as I stated in post#14, because there isn't an answer the manufacturers appear to be hedging their bets by making sure that one or the other applies,
It simply avoids a "12fpe rifle" that fails both, suddenly falling foul of the law because some tw*t decides to cut the stock & hold it like a pistol.

It's called "erring on the side of safety",

https://assets.publishing.service.go...l_2016_v20.pdf
Page 13 para 2.46 seems to confirm exactly what I am saying by clearly stating "any air pistol which has a barrel less than 30cm in length or is less than 60cm length overall with a muzzle energy in excess of 6fpe is a prohibited firearm"

Therefore by having one OR the other the pistol/rifle definition becomes moot up to 12fpe.

[RobF]

And as I stated in post#14, because there isn't an answer the manufacturers appear to be hedging their bets by making sure that one or the other applies,
It simply avoids a "12fpe rifle" that fails both, suddenly falling foul of the law because some tw*t decides to cut the stock & hold it like a pistol.

It's called "erring on the side of safety",

https://assets.publishing.service.go...l_2016_v20.pdf
Page 13 para 2.46 seems to confirm exactly what I am saying by clearly stating "any air pistol which has a barrel less than 30cm in length or is less than 60cm length overall with a muzzle energy in excess of 6fpe is a prohibited firearm"

Therefore by having one OR the other the pistol/rifle definition becomes moot up to 12fpe.

Yes the definition is moot up until 12 or 6. That's been a number of people's point all along.

It's moot because the 30/60 doesn't cover low powered air guns. That's why Page 13 para 2.46 makes it clear as guidance that if the gun isn't low powered it does. That's what the document is for, guidance.

In Bighit's link the judge said there is a circular argument which doesn't work because there's no definition of when an air pistol is not an air rifle until it's over the limit and then it is suddenly a pistol despite it not being one before. This issue comes up in a number of areas of the Act, like taking air rifles off ticket because they are no longer air rifles when they are on ticket. It's just the way it works (or doesn't). The reality is that just like other areas it doesn't affect anyone who hasn't already established a good reason for the law to be looking at them beforehand.


There is no definition of what an air pistol is. As I said before it is generally accepted by those concerned enough to look into it that it would fall upon what a reasonable idea of what a pistol was. Sawing the butt off may or may not define it in the same way adding a folding stock would or wouldn't either.

Therefore by having one OR the other the pistol/rifle definition becomes moot up to 12fpe.

No.

Long barrelled revolvers need not only a barrel length of 30cm but also need an overall length of 60cm because they can't rely on just one aspect otherwise they'd be sect 5. That's why they have rods welded to the back. If they just needed one they wouldn't bother with the other. It's still Either/Or. If they have just one they are sect 5.

[Antoni]

... The reality is that just like other areas it doesn't affect anyone who hasn't already established a good reason for the law to be looking at them beforehand....

Not accepting that, AT ALL.

There is no way to predict why the plod might decide to investigate your airguns.

Their reasons could be unconnected with anything you have done, only something someone wrongly said you have done or might have done.

That is why I wanted to know how to be squeaky clean if the plod knocked at my door for no good reason.

From what I've read so far it's clearly unclear and it's good to read educated opinion from RobF and others.

Looks like one has to apply the 'duck test' and be very conservative when applying it.

[RobF]

Not accepting that, AT ALL.

There is no way to predict why the plod might decide to investigate your airguns.

Their reasons could be unconnected with anything you have done, only something someone wrongly said you have done or might have done.

That is why I wanted to know how to be squeaky clean if the plod knocked at my door for no good reason.

From what I've read so far it's clearly unclear and it's good to read educated opinion from RobF and others.

Looks like one has to apply the 'duck test' and be very conservative when applying it.

There might be no way of predicting why you might come to the attention of the police but I don’t think there’s a single case of people being prosecuted with the greyer areas of airgun law without something else bringing them to the attention of the police beforehand. Generally the police have better things to do without feeling the need to knock on doors and get rulers and chronos out, and their need to test your gear will need to be related to their concerns. They need justification for seizure and testing. In other words you already need to be under suspicion of something to be worried.

[airgunnut]

For FAC I was once told, "if it was designed as a rifle no mater what you do (eg shorten the barrel and put a pistol stock on it and lower the power) it will always in the eyes of the law remain a rifle, with a pistol you can lengthen the barrel and put a shoulder stock on it but in the eyes of the law it's still a pistol that's why you canot up the power to more than 6 foot pounds muzzle energy."

[Antoni]

For FAC ....

Please, can we leave out laws which relate to powder burners in this airgun forum.

It seems that's not easy to do.

[airgunnut]

Please, can we leave out laws which relate to powder burners in this airgun forum.

It seems that's not easy to do.

The reason I mentioned it is becouse I believe it also apples to sub legal limit, I Beleve the drozd air pistol was subject to this law, the drozd air pistol, is a co2 pistol that can have a shoulder stock and longer barrel fitted to it to make a carbine rifle but it canot go over 6 foot pounds (in the uk only, there are those who modify these guns in other parts of the world, but those in the uk who have modified pistols in to rifles have no idea of the trouble they are getting into.)

By the way a lot of the powder burner laws also cover air guns because the law classes air guns as fire arms and the police and press class all guns as weapons.

[angrybear]

Please, can we leave out laws which relate to powder burners in this airgun forum.

It seems that's not easy to do.

My FAC Rapid is not a powder burner

[greenwayjames]

For FAC I was once told, "if it was designed as a rifle no mater what you do (eg shorten the barrel and put a pistol stock on it and lower the power) it will always in the eyes of the law remain a rifle, with a pistol you can lengthen the barrel and put a shoulder stock on it but in the eyes of the law it's still a pistol that's why you canot up the power to more than 6 foot pounds muzzle energy."

I was told directly by someone who was a partner in a UK air file and pistol manufacturer that when they queried the definitition of an air pistol were told that it REMAINS a pistol if that model was designed and left the manufacturer described as a pistol.
IMO the rules and regulations are left vague to provide work for lawyers. The same person told me that the BSA Ultra originally had a 10.5" barrel but a dealer played the barrack room lawyer bit saying they couldnt sell them even at sub 12. After consulting two lawyers and getting two different answers BSA avoided any issues by increasing the barrel length to 12" Because the overall length f the Ultra with silencer was stated in advertising the silencer was made useless by having to recess it over the barrel to keep inside that lenngth. I had one of the first 10.5" barrel Ultras and the silencer before modification did the job.

[Retracted_Yeti]

I was told directly by someone who was a partner in a UK air file and pistol manufacturer that when they queried the definitition of an air pistol were told that it REMAINS a pistol if that model was designed and left the manufacturer described as a pistol.

So the Smk CP2 is a pistol sold as a pistol/rifle.

So its therefore S5 even when it's approaching 800mm long with the factory supplied stock fitted and running around 8.5ft/lds!!(as std supplied by manufacturer)

You couldn't make this up in a bad film!

Methinks I need to get a job with Confused.com!

Cheers.

Roy.