FAC springs

[Rich]

Rather than clutter another thread with an interesting but off-topic item I think it is worth running a new one.

Here's the basis. A chap buys a new spring rifle from a dealer in Holland. The standard spring for the Dutch market is good for 20 joules, about 15 ft.lb. The Dutch retailer knows this, and he knows the UK limit is about 16 joules, so he puts a weaker spring in the rifle before he despatches it.

As the dealer is charging extra for the UK spring and not giving a credit for the 20 joule spring, he considers both to be the property of the buyer, and so he ships the 20 joule spring in the same box as the new rifle.

The buyer receives a legit rifle and an overpowered spring (for the UK market).

Question: is the new owner at liberty to sell the 20 joule spring, to anyone?

[Gooner shooter]

Go on .the Bay. You can buy any power spring you want... Its up to the individual to ensure his gun complies with the law... Do they sell special pellets for FAC .22's.?? .. Lol ..

[p.sharp]

You'll also find the majority of standard length titans are 'fac' spec until you trim them to suit your particular caliber & set up.

[snock]

Go on .the Bay. You can buy any power spring you want... Its up to the individual to ensure his gun complies with the law... Do they sell special pellets for FAC .22's.?? .. Lol ..

I think the OP is really asking a question about the technicality of transferring/ownership of FAC parts, rather than whether you can buy other springs.

There's a subtle but important difference...

Imagine if the spring (in this case) were an uprated FAC regulator that was supplied with the rifle. Can you see the distinction he's making?

[Rich]

It's not the same as buying a spring and finding out it's too powerful. This is a spring which by definition the owner knows is part of a rifle that can only be held on ticket.

What the purchaser does with it is clearly his or her responsibility. The question is, can the owner knowingly sell it for what it is.

If it was, for example, a bolt for a rimfire rifle, that could in my view be an unlawful sale if the holder and/or the purchaser didn't have the relevant slot on their ticket.

[Rich]

Thank you Pete.

There will be someone coming along to point out that spring guns don't have regulators.

[snock]

Thank you Pete.

There will be someone coming along to point out that spring guns don't have regulators.

Give it enough time...

[bhodge]

The Titan XS3 is the recommended spring for the standard HW97...it's also the recommended spring for the FAC HW77. Available from BAR for less than £19, there are no restrictions on the sale of this spring.
PS - the importer of the Dutch gun in question was me, so -"I WAS THAT SOLDIER".

[air-tech]

Question: is the new owner at liberty to sell the 20 joule spring, to anyone?

Supplementary question - is it the spring vendors obligation, or even business, to check whether the buyer has, is in the process of, or is thinking about applying for an FAC for an HW97? The answer to that leads to the answer to your question.

The only issue would be if you knowingly sold such a spring for the express purpose of making a gun illegal i.e. to someone who you know will definitely be making a gun illegal, and thereby you are an accomplice to a crime. Such a scenario could arise if you advertised it as being used for that specific reason, and you were contacted by someone who asked you to confirm this as this is what he intended doing, you confirmed, and he bought the item.

Otherwise, as long as the item itself is legal to own it is legal to dispose of it. Heaven forbid we had any responsibility for any item we ever sold that could possibly be used illegally. This is actually an argument that gun antis were trying to use to completely shut down all gun manufacturers, vendors, etc, i.e. basically wipe out the entire gun trade and inevitably eventually all gun ownership in the US.

I even call BS on the "I am selling only to someone who is legally permitted to purchase such a gun" blurb appended to some sales adverts. Meaningless, and a waste of space. It is the buyer who is obliged to ensure that he is fit to purchase, as long as the vendor does not knowingly... well, as previous.

[charub]

Come on Rich. You know this is a no brainier. You and I both know that if a competition rifle is set up at 790fps for a certain pellet and you change the pellet for a different one, there is a chance that you would be chancing your arm to stay legal - does that make the sale of those pellets illegal, or does it mean that it is your responsibility to reduce the power of your rifle?

[charub]

I think the OP is really asking a question about the technicality of transferring/ownership of FAC parts, rather than whether you can buy other springs.

There's a subtle but important difference...

Imagine if the spring (in this case) were an uprated FAC regulator that was supplied with the rifle. Can you see the distinction he's making?

Surely, if the uprated reg was being used on a rifle with a lot shorter barrel and therefore keeping below 12ftlb it would still be a legal transaction.

[Rich]

With respect I think you are missing the point, or I am not making it strongly enough.

It's not a matter of something perchance taking the power over the limit, this is a component expressly designed for a higher limit. My question is, does that make it a part of a licensable firearm which is then subject to the relevant paperwork procedures?

Whether or not the owner has any duty of care etc isn't the question. I'm not making any moral judgement or any other comment on anyone selling such a spring, I'm just interested in debating the status of the component.

Buying a bronze bar that might be used to make a new component...... too remote. This is a spring that has just come out of a rifle that would be overpowered for the UK market. I hope the difference is clear.

[charub]

With respect I think you are missing the point, or I am not making it strongly enough.

It's not a matter of something perchance taking the power over the limit, this is a component expressly designed for a higher limit. My question is, does that make it a part of a licensable firearm which is then subject to the relevant paperwork procedures?

Whether or not the owner has any duty of care etc isn't the question. I'm not making any moral judgement or any other comment on anyone selling such a spring, I'm just interested in debating the status of the component.

Buying a bronze bar that might be used to make a new component...... too remote. This is a spring that has just come out of a rifle that would be overpowered for the UK market. I hope the difference is clear.

I don't think you are understanding my point either.
The spring itself is not FAC - it's a spring! There are two many variables to list (my knowledge is not as good as some on here) but the spring is just one factor. There are so many people on this forum tinkering with springers. Someone may even knowingly purchase an FAC rated spring because they are playing with stroke/swept volumes/TP size. THE SPRING DOESNT MAKE IT FAC - THE OWNER DOES.
I do see your point, but I believe you are wrong on this one.

[Anothermiss]

UK law would be difficult to apply to an overseas seller in any case.

[Rich]

I do see your point, but I believe you are wrong on this one.

I can't be wrong, I'm not holding an opinion.