Repro pellets box's revisited

[ptdunk]

Some good replies, thanks.

I suppose there are different types of collector, I'm not a 'completist' but I understand why some collectors wish to put together sets of guns, box's pellets and accessories, and these can be hard to find. I still don't see the attraction of a pistol in a repro box, with repro accessories, but I suppose it gives the desired effect.
I always try to buy boxed examples of any air pistols and to be honest early in my collecting I got a straight gripped mk1 without a box and I bought one of Protek's very nicely made repro box's, for storage as much as anything.
I still try to get boxed examples of any air pistols but now I store all my pistols in gun socks in drawers and store the box's separately. Although it's beautifully made the repro box always makes me feel a bit disappointed in myself.

To mark a repro pellet box 'This is a facsimile. A modern copy. For display only'. is very conscientious, and there's nothing wrong with that. I don't think the ones pictured above are marked as such.

Interesting to hear the realised prices of pellet box's has hit rock bottom recently, as it was very healthy a year ago. I've only just checked in to see what repros are available and was surprised to see how many there are now.

I'm guessing Ink testing is tricky on a little pellet box, can someone remind me of how the U.V paper test works again please? what are the dates affected and will any U.V torch do?

re. reproduction Webley pistol box's I've seen online sellers of vintage airguns selling 50-90 year old Webley pistols with absolutely mint box's that must be reproductions but no mention is made of it.
At least when Protek sell pistols they mention 'we've put it in one of our reproduction box's' which is fair enough.

Cheers,
Matt

[Garvin]

I re-read the other thread and can see I'm all over the place on the question of facsimiles.

Not only have I spent wads of cash on a genuine Webley oil can when I swore I wouldn't, I've put a couple of loose Webley pistols in those lovely repro boxes.

[ccdjg]

I'm guessing Ink testing is tricky on a little pellet box, can someone remind me of how the U.V paper test works again please? what are the dates affected and will any U.V torch do?

Cheers,
Matt

Matt,

The UV test is based on the fact that UV brighteners were first introduced onto the paper and card making industries in 1950. These invisible dyes convert the invisible UV light in daylight into bright blue/white light and so make white card and paper look even whiter and brighter. They were so popular and cheap that by about 1965 virtually all commercial white card and paper had these in. In fact it is now extremely difficult to find any without them in, so much so that paper with no UV brighteners is used for banknotes, knowing that forgers have a very hard time getting such paper.

So if anything with white paper labels or made of white card glows blue-white under UV light, you can be 100% certain that it was not made before 1950.

On the other hand, if it does not glow under UV you cannot be 100% certain it is a genuine pre-1950 product, because the use of UV brighteners was phased in, but you can be very near certain that it is pre-1965.

You can use any sort of UV pen, but some are better than others. The less visible light and more dark (UV) light it produces, the better it is.
The problem is that it works best in a dark room, so in a brightly lit hall it will difficult to see the glow. You need to do the test in the shadiest area you can find, or put your hand over the object to shade it as much as you can. Here are some examples, photographed in a dark room to enhance the effect.

The first shows a pre-1950 Lanes Cat Slug box, which came with a pre-war boxed Gat pistol, alongside a box of Cat Slugs I bought about 15 years ago. You can see that in the dark under UV light the older box is almost invisible, whereas the newer box glows brightly and so cannot be pre-1950. This does not mean it is a fake though, as Lanes were marketing these slugs into the 1960’s when UV brightened cardboard was the norm.





The next picture shows a selection of pellet boxes of varying ages.





The brightly glowing John Bull box is a definite fake(it is marked as reproduction), whereas the dark box is genuinely old. The same goes for the Beatall pellets, the glowing box is a deliberate fake. In the case of the Marksman pellets, the dark box is pre-1950 and the glowing box post 1950. However the glowing box is not a fake as the pellets are still being made and I bought this box as new a few months ago from a sports shop.


Here are some more examples. The pre-1950 boxes can be easily distinguished from the post-1950 boxes:





Here are a couple of pistol boxes from the same manufacturer- one pre-war the other post 1983. The differences can easily be seen.






So the UV test is by no means the perfect dating tool, but it certainly can be a big help, and for the cost of a few pounds off Fleabay it is a no-brainer.

[Troubledshooter]

I still have a UV tube from my Philatelic days, so presumably that would do the job as well.
The only pellet box I have reproduced in any quantity, 20 I think, was the Webley .25 pellet box, with the main giveaway, apart from some having Kellogs writing internally, being the '99 - 66' apostrophes each side of 'Webley'.
The labels on those and my pistol boxes were all laser printed, with no attempt made at ageing.

[pjbingham]

The more I think about replicas of anything the most I end up in a conflicting hypocritical mess. I cast replica resin pistol grips and from the rear they are clearly a modern resin however I try to make them as authentic to the front as possible. I want to see these old pistols live again but I’m mindful that future custodians my be caught out by them and I have no wish to deceive. As a rule I do not agree though with replica pellet boxes unless so clearly marked so as to never cause confusion as to their origins. As mentioned earlier Chris Hough when he made some really did go the extra mile to make sure his could never be mistaken so I see that level of replica as ok. I’m not going to knock Protek as they are good guys but generally speaking replica boxes of the level they sell are way way to good or bad depending on your outlook and I can see future purchasers getting caught out. Then you get some of the Fleabay numpties with their dodgy looking boxes, I reported some not so long ago as being fake, they were being sold as “vintage and original” and in one set of photos you could clearly see the lid had never been folded it had no creases it was still a flat section of card and then in s following photo that same lid had been crudely folded over and stuffed inside the box. Fleabays highly trained team of pellet box experts deemed it pukka though so it remained listed ready to dupe the unwary.

[ptdunk]

Matt,

The UV test is based on the fact that UV brighteners were first introduced onto the paper and card making industries in 1950. These invisible dyes convert the invisible UV light in daylight into bright blue/white light and so make white card and paper look even whiter and brighter. They were so popular and cheap that by about 1965 virtually all commercial white card and paper had these in. In fact it is now extremely difficult to find any without them in, so much so that paper with no UV brighteners is used for banknotes, knowing that forgers have a very hard time getting such paper.

So if anything with white paper labels or made of white card glows blue-white under UV light, you can be 100% certain that it was not made before 1950.

On the other hand, if it does not glow under UV you cannot be 100% certain it is a genuine pre-1950 product, because the use of UV brighteners was phased in, but you can be very near certain that it is pre-1965.



So the UV test is by no means the perfect dating tool, but it certainly can be a big help, and for the cost of a few pounds off Fleabay it is a no-brainer.

Fantastic stuff, thanks John.
I’ve ordered my UV torch and Dario tells me that thanks to this info he was able to check his pellet box collection and is much reassured.

Got to be worthy of a short public service video.

Cheers,
Matt

[rapidresponse1]

i wish id kept a load of my old boxs off years ago

[Re01312]

Guys,

I always learn great stuff about my hobby on this site. I have a UV torch
but never used it for aging boxes and such until now.

John, Thanks for teaching us about UV dating.

Randall

[Garvin]

I would love to look at auction no .285781509777 under one of these lights. An obvious modern photocopy.

[ptdunk]

Having revived a UV torch I am happily reassured my handful of pellet box’s are legit, including a couple I wasn’t sure about. Fantastic info on the UV test. Thanks again John!

Cheers,
Matt