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Thread: AA S200 Bells & Whistles - Poor Results

  1. #1
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    AA S200 Bells & Whistles - Poor Results

    I'd be very, very grateful of any help and advice regarding the following:

    I decided to do a DIY upgrade on my S200. Basic plan was to increase shot count along with adding a pressure gauge and quick fill.

    So parts:

    1. HUMA reg from XTX. (factory set to 95 bar)
    2. Altaros Extra long Aluminium air tube (0.15L)
    3. Altaros Quick fill and pressure gauge.
    4. Chronoscope - Combro cb-625 Mk4

    I assembled 1-3 and fitted the firing valve end plug from the old CZ / AA air cylinder. I filled the new cylinder (off the rifle), to the maximum 190 bar. and left it to see if it was holding pressure. Checked it a week later and.. Yep all OK. Good.

    Next I removed the action from the stock and removed the barrel (sent it away to be screw cut). Then I did everything needed to the block (AT and TP) along with the necessary in order to easily alter hammer spring tension to achieve required power levels.

    Today I put everything together, strapped on the combro, opened up a new tin of Superfields and sat down with pen and paper and couldn't wait to see the result.

    Well... to say I am disappointed is a massive understatement. Just over 40 shots!.. and FPS variation and power curve not as good as an unregulated gun? Any guru's on here know what I need to do or where to start to get this where it should be? See the result from a 190 bar fill below - Ouch!

    Air Arms S200 .177
    14.05.18
    190 Bar fill
    RWS Superfields - 8.4 grns

    Air Arms S200 .177
    14.05.18
    190 Bar fill
    RWS Superfields - 8.4 grns

    Shot No: FPS Ft/Lbs Pressure Check
    1 774 11.19
    2 777 11.27
    3 780 11.34
    4 776 11.24
    5 774 11.17
    6 776 11.24
    7 774 11.19
    8 780 11.35
    9 776 11.24
    10 776 11.24
    11 774 11.19
    12 774 11.19
    13 774 11.17
    14 776 11.17
    15 777 11.26
    16 774 11.17
    17 776 11.24 150 bar
    18 783 11.44
    19 781 11.37
    20 780 11.35
    21 778 11.3
    22 782 11.42
    23 781 11.37 140 bar
    24 781 11.39
    25 784 11.46
    26 785 11.51
    27 781 11.39
    28 784 11.49
    29 785 11.51
    30 784 11.46
    31 783 11.44
    32 786 11.53
    33 784 11.49 120 bar
    34 782 11.42
    35 777 11.28
    36 778 11.3
    37 779 11.32
    38 782 11.42
    39 782 11.42 105 bar
    40 782 11.42
    41 785 11.51
    42 779 11.32
    43 776 11.24
    44 764 10.88 100 bar
    45 756 10.68
    46 754 10.6
    47 744 10.33
    48 735 10.09
    49 732 10.01

  2. #2
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    When I regged my AA400 carbine I ended up eventually after a lot of trial and testing with 114 shots before it dropped off the reg (Lane). I would expect the 200 to reach 80 shots at least.
    Did you get any instructions with it? I had to open up the transfer port, remove the firing pot, increase valve preload a bit then use a shorter stronger hammer spring, I didn't have to but also made a a longer/lighter hammer. The reg was set to 105bar.

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    Well 12fps variation is not bad right up to around 101 bar - appears reg is nominally set at 95 or your gauge is not incredibly accurate.

    As for air consumption - you may need to tweak hammer spring and perhaps hammer opening, the factory setup tries to give its best over a wide range of pressures, working well at full pressure, and opening further/longer when the pressures drop, so now the gun is regged and the pressure is permanently low too much air may be being wasted.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bezzer View Post
    When I regged my AA400 carbine I ended up eventually after a lot of trial and testing with 114 shots before it dropped off the reg (Lane). I would expect the 200 to reach 80 shots at least.
    Did you get any instructions with it? I had to open up the transfer port, remove the firing pot, increase valve preload a bit then use a shorter stronger hammer spring, I didn't have to but also made a a longer/lighter hammer. The reg was set to 105bar.
    With the reg and the bigger air tube, I though it realistic to get around 90 full power shots. I've already opened up TP to max. I only got fitting instructions with the reg, nothing about tweaking or what to tweak. There's an XTX Youtube video showing how to install the regulator and he does mention 'Zig Zagging' which are large jumps both up and down in FPS which is to do with the regulator not breathing properly. Whilst this could be the answer to the inconsistency, I can't work out why I'm getting such a low shot count. Could it just be that the reg is faulty or are there too many other variables involved that can contribute to give the same effect?

    Should I back off the hammer spring tension and see what happens? Screw out the TP further (in case its still slightly restricted)? I know there's an adjustment on the firing valve. I was told to screw this all the way in and then screw it out 1 full turn. The only other adjustment I know of is the regulator pressure setting. This was set at 95 bar.

    Anyone have any ideas on where I should start in terms of eliminating possible causes?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by air-tech View Post
    Well 12fps variation is not bad right up to around 101 bar - appears reg is nominally set at 95 or your gauge is not incredibly accurate.

    As for air consumption - you may need to tweak hammer spring and perhaps hammer opening, the factory setup tries to give its best over a wide range of pressures, working well at full pressure, and opening further/longer when the pressures drop, so now the gun is regged and the pressure is permanently low too much air may be being wasted.
    Yes, reg set at 95 bar. I'll lessen the hammer spring tension and then test again and see what happen.

    Thanks.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by air-tech View Post
    As for air consumption - you may need to tweak hammer spring and perhaps hammer opening.
    What is hammer opening and how do you adjust / alter?

    Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitslayer View Post
    What is hammer opening and how do you adjust / alter?

    Thanks
    dunno but the adjustments you make to the firing valve spring tension together with the strength of the hammer spring affects the opening of the firing valve. slacker the firing valve the more/easier it will open and let more air in, tightening it and using a stronger/shorter hammer spring means less air- more shots, but it can take a lot of testing to get the right balance. Don't know about the reg not "breathing" I've only fitted Lane ones that need a breather hole drilling take it the Huma one doesn't and is a sealed system?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bezzer View Post
    Don't know about the reg not "breathing" I've only fitted Lane ones that need a breather hole drilling take it the Huma one doesn't and is a sealed system?
    It's not a sealed system. It needs to breath but instead of drilling a hole, you remove the 'o' ring from the brass end plug (on the S200 cylinder) before you refit it and don't tighten the end plug totally shut. You leave a small gap, about the thickness of a sheet of paper.

    Quote Originally Posted by bezzer View Post
    dunno but the adjustments you make to the firing valve spring tension together with the strength of the hammer spring affects the opening of the firing valve. it can take a lot of testing to get the right balance.
    Hmm... that means having to empty the air tube each time I need to alter the firing valve spring.. Ah well. I'll start with the hammer spring and see how far I can back it off and what the outcome is before touching the valve gate spring again.
    Last edited by rabbitslayer; 14-05-2018 at 11:35 PM.

  9. #9
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    Did same to a 200 but using Altaros reg. Got similar results to you too but with the odd very high power shot. Had weeks of trying to balance it by adjusting reg, hammer spring tension and power adjusting screw. Have you had the hammer and spring out and cleamed it and removed any roughness, makes a difference to consistency. Had enough after many stripdowns and sold it (was better but still not sorted) being left dissallusioned with regs and pcp's and went back to springers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitslayer View Post
    Hmm... that means having to empty the air tube each time I need to alter the firing valve spring.. Ah well. I'll start with the hammer spring and see how far I can back it off and what the outcome is before touching the valve gate spring again.
    It's a pain having to empty and refill each time but if you put a piece of brush handle or similar in the reservoir at least you won't be using/wasting as much air each time you alter it. I used a piece of nylon bar in mine.

  11. #11
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    There are those on here that know a lot more about this than me and it is a long time since i went into a s200. my thoughts are that normally with a 180 bar fill that pressure is being overcome by a strong firing valve spring sealing the firing valve, now the reg is there and the pressure delivered to the firing valve is 95 bar then the firing valve spring is too strong and the hammer spring is working too hard to overcome that tension. When i set up a Steyr it's about the balance of reg pressure vs firing valve spring vs hammer spring, i think that's your problem. see if you can find a 'softer' hammer spring or contact the reg supplier as he must have had this question before?
    Chairman Emley Moor F.T.C. 2023 - Misfits champ, HFT extreme champ, NEFTA hunter champ, Midlands Hunter champ, UKAHFT champ.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by imorik View Post
    Did same to a 200 but using Altaros reg. Got similar results to you too but with the odd very high power shot. Had weeks of trying to balance it by adjusting reg, hammer spring tension and power adjusting screw. Have you had the hammer and spring out and cleamed it and removed any roughness, makes a difference to consistency. Had enough after many stripdowns and sold it (was better but still not sorted) being left dissallusioned with regs and pcp's and went back to springers.
    I can understand your frustration. Thing is it's something that can be sorted as there are lots of regulated rifles that perform correctly. The only problem in this case is me and my lack of knowledge.

    Although it now makes sense to me (because of helpful bbs members), it would have been helpful if the suppliers mentioned that there'd be a need to rebalance the hammer, firing springs setup for simpletons like me.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisC View Post
    There are those on here that know a lot more about this than me and it is a long time since i went into a s200. my thoughts are that normally with a 180 bar fill that pressure is being overcome by a strong firing valve spring sealing the firing valve, now the reg is there and the pressure delivered to the firing valve is 95 bar then the firing valve spring is too strong and the hammer spring is working too hard to overcome that tension. When i set up a Steyr it's about the balance of reg pressure vs firing valve spring vs hammer spring, i think that's your problem. see if you can find a 'softer' hammer spring or contact the reg supplier as he must have had this question before?
    Thanks ChrisC.

    I understand the aim here now. The trick however must be knowing how to interpret results in relation to adjustments made and thats where my inexperience lets me down.

    Wouldn't it be possible for suppliers to offer balanced firing valve and hammer springs matched to the pressure setting of the regulator they sell? Would be too easy I suppose

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    on a slight cautionary tangent, have you tried chrono'ing with another pellet?

    reason I ask, is that from my understanding of some previous threads superfields can measure low on a chrono, meaning that if you try with jsb's and their ilk you will measure substantially over, you might decide to wind the power down a tad

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitslayer View Post
    Thanks ChrisC.

    I understand the aim here now. The trick however must be knowing how to interpret results in relation to adjustments made and thats where my inexperience lets me down.

    Wouldn't it be possible for suppliers to offer balanced firing valve and hammer springs matched to the pressure setting of the regulator they sell? Would be too easy I suppose
    Yes mate, you'd have thought that the reg supplier (if they had been contacted about this before) would have put together a small kit to make it an easy, DIY job. I mean, they must have experimented with the settings before making a product to sell?

    To revert back to Steyrs. The newer models had an external power adjuster that meant an allen key could be used to push the power above the limit. Steyr in thier wisdom introduced a transfer port with a reduced diameter. the problem was that the shot count almost halved with the (silver) port fitted and the firing valve spring,reg and hammer spring were out of balance. The hammer spring had to be wound right in to get the power to a useable level which meant that the hammer smashed into the friing valve which in turn bounced. The result was a much lower shot count, harsher firing cycle and a vastly reduced life for the internals.....not a clever solution.

    I suspect that you've got something similar going on but i also think it should be an easy enough fix......someone on here (or the reg supplier) will have just the info you need....hopefully.
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