Repro pellet boxes and tins

[Garvin]

OK, I take the point that having realistic copies on the market increases the chances of fakery and passing off by the unscrupulous, but on balance I think it's better to have good facsimiles out there than not. Many a Webley pistol has been enhanced by the 'new' old boxes and it can only help improve pride of ownership to be able to buy one. It doesn't make the genuine article any the less desirable, surely?

Of course, all honourable reproducers of airgun memorabilia should add a sign to alert collectors they are dealing with a copy, or even incorporate the word 'facsimile' unobtrusively into the design - maybe inside a pellet box? But the world being what it is, there will always be fakers looking to deceive and collectors of the genuine should be cautious with their money, as always.

I'm thinking of the little Frank Morton Webley Service booklets, which were realistically reproduced some years ago. It's long enough ago that some of these have aged and are dog-eared, making them look like originals. But real collectors would know. I have one and it's probably the closest I'll ever get to an original.

Protek also reproduced one of the BSA manuals IIRC.

In the rare books market print 'on demand' has given cheap access to knowledge previously only possible by visiting a library in person. I think technology is generally a good thing, despite its having a 'dark side'.

Here is a pic of some good repro pllet boxes made by a fellow collector.

[Troubledshooter]

Protek also reproduced one of the BSA manuals IIRC.

As far as I am aware, they were produced by the same person as the 'Morton' booklet and in a similar period, unless someone has gone to the trouble of organising and setting up another printing.

[harvey_s]

I struggle with the ephemera & accessory side of airgun collection - but can see that some pure collectors would like it and it's nice to see it retained for future generations.
But I really do not get the whole reproduction airgun memorabilia thing...it's not original, so what's the point

[ccdjg]

Here is a pic of some good repro pllet boxes made by a fellow collector.

Oh dear. I have some of those boxes, which I have picked up over the past few years, and now I won't be able to look at them in the same way. How many of these replicas did he actually make, and did any find their way onto the market?

[Garvin]

Oh dear. I have some of those boxes, which I have picked up over the past few years, and now I won't be able to look at them in the same way. How many of these replicas did he actually make, and did any find their way onto the market?

Apparently these boxes are marked (one is a complete fake - no prizes for guessing which!) so you can tell them apart from the original, and he assures me there was no intent to deceive...

I'm curious, John - presumably you made your fantastic reproduction bellows pistol because it was highly unlikely you would ever find, or be able to afford, an original one? Is that so different from re-making ultra-rare pellet boxes, as long as you make no effort to pass them off as original?

I ask this slightly tongue-in-cheek, as someone who like other collectors would always greatly prefer to own an original rather than a replica. But if there's almost zero chance that's going to happen, a really good facsimile is a bit better than nothing, isn't it?

[ccdjg]

Thanks Danny, that comes as something of a relief.

Of course, I think it is perfectly OK for collectors to make their own replicas of rare items, but only as long as they mark them in some way so that they can be easily identified as replicas.

I do this with my own guns by etching them with their provenance in a concealed but easily accessed place. For example, my Whiting copy is etched on the frame under the grip plates as here

[Troubledshooter]

In my opinion, one of the best replicas I did was the Webley clock, and as far as I know there is only one known original example, so I had no hesitation in making a replica as near to the original as possible using modern materials.
The original had an etched glass facia and a mains operated mechanism, but my replica was made using a reproduction printed clock facia sandwiched between two layers of Perspex, with a battery operated mechanism mounted through the Perspex, with two versions that could either be wall or table mounted, and could either have sweep or incremental second hand.
I did initially sell a few but the demand was not as high as I had expected, so I still have the materials to make a few more.

[njaw]

In my opinion, one of the best replicas I did was the Webley clock, and as far as I know there is only one known original example, so I had no hesitation in making a replica as near to the original as possible using modern materials.
The original had an etched glass facia and a mains operated mechanism, but my replica was made using a reproduction printed clock facia sandwiched between two layers of Perspex, with a battery operated mechanism mounted through the Perspex, with two versions that could either be wall or table mounted, and could either have sweep or incremental second hand.
I did initially sell a few but the demand was not as high as I had expected, so I still have the materials to make a few more.

I have one of your fine clocks in my study ;-)

[Josie & John]

I have to admit at being slightly irked by the fake pellets tins and boxes on t'bay. Whenever I carry out a search on collectable pellets, a plethora of fakes is included. They are so wide of the mark as far as authenticity is concerned, I really can't see the point of them from a collector's perspective.

The repro Morton books are a useful reference as the information they contain remains relevant. It would have been good if they had been marked in some way as the printing quality is excellent. So much so that I am wary of any 6th edition that is offered as an original. You really need to have an original to hand for comparison if offered a 6th edition purported to be original.

Two of the best reproduction items I have seen are a couple of 1950s BSA leaflets I recently acquired through a member on here. The printing quality is professional and hard to tell from the originals but the bottom of one page is unobtrusively marked reproduction with the year of printing.

Oh and another vote for Troubledhooter's clocks. A lovely item for the gunroom or bedroom in my instance!

John

[Garvin]

This thread has made me question whether I want replicas of any sort anywhere near my collection!

I’ve found that I can easily tolerate repro brochures and printed things - Giffard, Webley, BSA, Crosman literature etc - because they are interesting reads.

I don’t really collect pellet packaging, except by accident, so I’m not interested in replica boxes, despite what I said earlier.

I probably wouldn’t bother with a replica Webley oil can unless it was the only thing missing to complete a set. I certainly wouldn’t spend hundreds on an original.

My unboxed Webley pistols will stay unboxed, however perfect the replica boxes are.

Thinking about the subject properly, I realise that authenticity is a key part of what makes me a collector. I half expected my Walther LP52 pistol to be a fake before it arrived, but on seeing it felt immediately it was genuine (as did the other collectors who have seen it in the flesh). So I kept it, but would have quickly got rid of it if not.

Generally I think that if the money is tempting enough then conmen will always try to diddle people out of it, sadly. In the long run, increasingly facsimiles will be sold as originals even if it means obliterating the word "replica", or filing off the word "reproduction".

My Morton booklet is too fresh and shiny to appear original now, but in 30 years it won’t be. Lesson: as John says, beware of 6th edition Mortons!

It’s a case of caveat emptor and the ‘experts’ will have the final word on what’s genuine or not, just like they do in the art world, where the difference between fake paintings and genuine ones can be millions.

There’s a strong human tendency to believe that what you have is genuine - ie. a factory variant - (read John Atkins’ AG article on broken lugs on Webley ‘spring clip’ Mk1s) rather than the work of a random gunsmith.

This means owners will always be the last people capable of making unbiased decisions on authenticity (ie. my LP52!).

It also means that the line between ‘passing off’ and ‘good faith’ is blurred, because for every seller trying to dupe you with a fake, there will be another seller who is an honest, earnest believer.

Finally, I share everyone else’s horror at the thought of facsimiles that don’t declare themselves openly for what they are. Anyone who makes something hoping to sell it ‘under the radar’ is no better than a thief.

[Troubledshooter]

Here's the replica Webley clock, as that photo too disappeared when my sig site went:

[micky2]

OK, I take the point that having realistic copies on the market increases the chances of fakery and passing off by the unscrupulous, but on balance I think it's better to have good facsimiles out there than not. Many a Webley pistol has been enhanced by the 'new' old boxes and it can only help improve pride of ownership to be able to buy one. It doesn't make the genuine article any the less desirable, surely?

Of course, all honourable reproducers of airgun memorabilia should add a sign to alert collectors they are dealing with a copy, or even incorporate the word 'facsimile' unobtrusively into the design - maybe inside a pellet box? But the world being what it is, there will always be fakers looking to deceive and collectors of the genuine should be cautious with their money, as always.

I'm thinking of the little Frank Morton Webley Service booklets, which were realistically reproduced some years ago. It's long enough ago that some of these have aged and are dog-eared, making them look like originals. But real collectors would know. I have one and it's probably the closest I'll ever get to an original.

Protek also reproduced one of the BSA manuals IIRC.

In the rare books market print 'on demand' has given cheap access to knowledge previously only possible by visiting a library in person. I think technology is generally a good thing, despite its having a 'dark side'.

Here is a pic of some good repro pllet boxes made by a fellow collector.

Hi Danny, those pellet boxes look really good and would fool some people. the Morton booklets that Dennis did where very good indeed and some have been passed off as original, l don't know if they said it was a reprint or facsimile, as l sold mine so l can't check. when l got a copy of what l belive is a genuine copy which came in a boxed Service. but in his The Complete Air-Gunner reprints Dennis to his credit. it did say second edition 1984 and third 1992.

[Troubledshooter]

Hi Danny, those pellet boxes look really good and would fool some people. the Morton booklets that Dennis did where very good indeed and some have been passed off as original, l don't know if they said it was a reprint or facsimile, as l sold mine so l can't check. when l got a copy of what l belive is a genuine copy which came in a boxed Service. but in his The Complete Air-Gunner reprints Dennis to his credit. it did say second edition 1984 and third 1992.

I wasn't aware Dennis ever made any replica copies of Morton's booklet; they were produced by another BBS member some years ago, along with some replica BSA booklets as well.
As I've pointed out previously, all the replica sixth edition Morton booklets have the same cover pattern, whereas the originals would have different patterns.

Here's a scan of the covers: http://mynetimages.com/album/Trouble...img=3ce5d93d53

[I. J.]

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Airs...ml?sort=6&o=25

How could they?

[micky2]

I wasn't aware Dennis ever made any replica copies of Morton's booklet; they were produced by another BBS member some years ago, along with some replica BSA booklets as well.
As I've pointed out previously, all the replica sixth edition Morton booklets have the same cover pattern, whereas the originals would have different patterns.

Here's a scan of the covers: http://mynetimages.com/album/Trouble...img=3ce5d93d53

The thing is that if you have never seen one, you wouldn't know if it was real or a copy. it's fine if you have an original to compare it with. l don't know if Dennis had them made or not, but l bought mine off him a long long time ago. l sold it has a copy because that is what Dennis was selling them has at the time. the edition that came with my boxed Service which l belive is original is a 8th edition with a different colour on the front and dated September 1938. but thank you for showing the 2 copies together.