Webley Mark I Straight Grip Variants

[Josie & John]

On the back of a recent Webley thread around Mark I variations, I'm going to attempt to produce a table of all known variants of the wooden gripped 'Straight Grip' model. I'm not going to try and classify the pistols into 'Series' but a list containing all known variations along with known serial numbers may prove beneficial to us.

This is where you all come in. The following is a list of variants I have come up with so far. I'm sure there are others and I have purposely omitted variants I think exist but have not handled/seen. There are two areas I need assistance with:-

1. If you have a Mark I, please tell me if it fits under one of the following categories and if so, respond on here by stating the variant type and serial number.

2. If you identify a variant that I have not listed, please supply details of markings and any unusual features. Be prepared, I may ask for pics so we can positively identify any unusual variations.

• Single Spring Clip Model
• Double Spring Clip Model
• Early Thumbcatch Model with Patent Applied For on Breech Block. Slim grips
• British Patent on Breech Block Model without Trigger Adjustment
• British Patent on Breech Block Model with Trigger Adjustment
• British Patent on Breech Block Model with U.S.A. Patents Pending Model
• British and U.S.A. Patent Model with no Breech Block markings ( and U.S.A. patents only stamped either side of front of cylinder)
• International Patent Model with patents stamped above and below WEBLEY MARK I and BRITISH PATENT stampings
• Etched Patents Model with MADE IN ENGLAND on breech block and British Patent on right front of cylinder
• Etched Patents Model with no stampings on Breech Block or right front of cylinder
• International Patent Model with Webley Mark I on right side of Cylinder. Non locking trigger adjuster and no Barrel Joint Locking screw
• International Patent Model with Webley Mark I on right side of Cylinder and non locking trigger adjuster
• International Patent Model with Webley Mark I on right side of Cylinder and locking trigger adjuster. Birmingham & London address
• International Patent Model with Webley Mark I on right side of Cylinder and locking trigger adjuster. Birmingham address
• International Patent Model with Webley Mark I on right side of Cylinder and locking trigger adjuster. Twin Bung Model
• Abridged International Patent Model (, U.S and Canada only) with Webley Mark I on right side of Cylinder and locking trigger adjuster
• Stoeger marked Model
• Smoothbore Mark I
• Retailer Marked Mark I


I have included smoothbore as this was an option and original smoothbore barrels on Mark Is are rare. Similarly, as I have included Stoeger marked pistols, I thought it only fair to also include other retailers.

Thanks in advance to all who participate. I hope the finished result will prove to be beneficial.

John

[Garvin]

John I'm not exactly sure which variant my Mk1 is and I can't get to it right now, but detailed pics of it are HERE.

[Josie & John]

Thanks Danny,

I have that nice example listed already. If this mini project works out, I'll put something together for the Vintage Airgun Gallery for you.

Kind regards,

John

[Leonardj]

Hi John,
I'll add my modest collection to the list.

#1 - SN 10010 - British Patent on Breech Block Model with U.S.A. Patents Pending Model.

#2 - SN 17415 - Etched Patents Model with MADE IN ENGLAND on breech block and British Patent on right front of cylinder.

#3 - SN 25988 - International Patent Model with Webley Mark I on right side of Cylinder and non locking trigger adjuster.

#4 - SN 29454 - International Patent Model with Webley Mark I on right side of Cylinder and locking trigger adjuster. Birmingham & London address.

#5 - SN 35870 - A) Stoeger marked Model. B) British and U.S.A. Patent Model with no Breech Block markings ( and U.S.A. patents only stamped either side of front of cylinder).
Pics of this gun available here: http://www.network54.com/Forum/68145...oeger+markings.

[Leonardj]

Was the smoothbore barrel option available on a broad range of the listed Mark I variants?
In the interest of properly identifying the actual variant equipped with the smoothbore barrel, would it be feasible to, for example, append the serial number with "SB", or just "S"?
For example:

SN XXXXX SB - (or SN XXXXX S) - International Patent Model with Webley Mark I on right side of Cylinder and locking trigger adjuster. Birmingham & London address.
(Which would indicate this particular variant, with the optional smoothbore barrel.)

Thus, in the database or list, it would appear as XXXXX, XXXXX, XXXXX SB, (or XXXXX S).....etc.

Just a thought.

[Chris-S]

Hi John

Here's one of mine for you - s/n 19827 - apparently as the 12th variation on your list but has the barrel joint locking screw (also Birmingham & London address).

Of some interest may be that from my database approximately 85% are in .177 calibre and 15% in .22 ( ie a ratio of about 5.7:1 in favour of the .177). I have no smoothbores listed - of course not all my records show the calibre as this is not always recorded in the primary source but it sometimes turns up later on.

My database contains 20 fields of which 14 contain data for engineering or inscriptional items that changed at least once during the total production period (ie at least 2 varieties, some three or four or more). Some of these changes are of considerable importance to collectors in deciding on the authenticity of a particular piece. My feeling is that if all major and minor engineering and inscriptional variations combined are considered there may well be rather more than 22 varieties - however it depends how far you want to go in defining varieties.

FWIW my own preference would be for either 3 or 4 major types of the straight grip model - I would treat the pre-war slant grip model as a separate entity. My preference would be for the major series to be defined by engineering, not inscriptional, changes.

Series 1 - pistols without trigger adjustment (approx. 10,000 units)

Series 2 - pistols with trigger adjustment (approx. 25,000 units)

Series 3 - pistols with removable front plug/spring guide (approx. 15,000 units).

The above production figures are very approximate, but are probably about correct to within a thousand or so.

It would be nice to be able to split Series 2 into two different series - thus making a total of four series - but there is really no significant engineering change to make this worthwhile. It could be split at the introduction of the locking screw for the trigger adjuster, thus splitting the above Series 2 into two separate series of about 15,00 and 10,000 units.

If this was considered worthwhile there would thus be four series of about 10,000, 15,000, 10,000 and 15,000 pistols. I personally would not consider this as worthwhile and would call this change a sub-variety of Series 2 - others may disagree.

The rest of the engineering and inscriptional changes I would consider as variations of the major series.

If you've read this far you have my sympathies - award yourself a chocolate biscuit.

ATB Chris S.

[Josie & John]

Thank you Len and Chris.

To answer points in turn, the smoothbore option was available all the way through the production run but was intended for markets where rifled barrels were not permitted. Webley could supply smoothbore barrels upon request but why would someone want one if the standard was a rifled barrel? I added smoothbore as a variation as it is very rarely encountered today. Dennis Hiller mentions one such pistol and I do not personally know of any (would like one though!)

Chris,
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I can see your logic and if I were to categorise pistols into series, your suggestion has possibly been the simplest, which is exactly what is required. What I'm doing at present is listing each known variation and including both engineering changes and changes to inscriptions, as that can also be used to refer to a certain variation, such as 'Etched Model'. I'm not sure we will all agree on what constitutes a series and whilst delving deeper and deeper into these variations, I would also challenge some of what Gordon Bruce refers to as a separate series in Webley Air Pistols!

Thanks again for your input.

Does anyone have pistols in the 10000 - 20000 and 42000 - 50000 ranges as these are the areas I am presently concentrating on?

Kind regards,

John

[Mzee]

Hi John,
Here's the information about my one & only early Mk 1 -

S/N 16411
Trigger adjustment, no locking screw.
Breech block unmarked.
Markings (sorry, I don't know how to differentiate between etching & engraving)
Right side of cylinder - BRITISH PATENT 21872
Left side of cylinder - WEBLEY & SCOTT LTD BIRMINGHAM & LONDON

ATB
Glyn

[Josie & John]

Hi John,
Here's the information about my one & only early Mk 1 -

S/N 16411
Trigger adjustment, no locking screw.
Breech block unmarked.
Markings (sorry, I don't know how to differentiate between etching & engraving)
Right side of cylinder - BRITISH PATENT 21872
Left side of cylinder - WEBLEY & SCOTT LTD BIRMINGHAM & LONDON

ATB
Glyn

Thank you Glyn,
That ties up rather well. I'm presuming the left front of the cylinder is stamped WEBLEY MARK I?

Telling the difference between etching and stamping is simple when you know how. Stampings are just that - marks which have been impressed into the body of the pistol. Etching is smoother in that the process involves acid eating into the finish to leave smooth white lettering. Rust and years of wear result in that lettering turning brown and often fading away altogether to give the impression no markings were ever present. Etched Webleys are very rare.

Kind regards,

John

[Mzee]

Hi John,
The front left side of the cylinder is marked WEBLEY AIR PISTOL MARK 1.
Thanks for explaining etching v engraving. I reckon my Mk 1 is engraved.
By the way, I hadn't realised that the barrel on my Service rifle is tapered until I read your excellent articles in AGW. I do think it adds to aesthetics of the gun.
ATB
Glyn

[Josie & John]

Hi John,
The front left side of the cylinder is marked WEBLEY AIR PISTOL MARK 1.
Thanks for explaining etching v engraving. I reckon my Mk 1 is engraved.
By the way, I hadn't realised that the barrel on my Service rifle is tapered until I read your excellent articles in AGW. I do think it adds to aesthetics of the gun.
ATB
Glyn

Thanks Glyn - yes your pistol will be stamped. Leonard Joe posted a link to his excellent etched Mark I earlier on this thread if you want to see what an etched pistol looks like. Numbers seem to fall into the 17000 - 18000 range. I meant to say WEBLEY AIR PISTOL MARK I but have markings coming out of my ears and will need to take a break from drafting my list soon

Tapered barrels on the Service are not often seen. I'm not sure why some are tapered and others are not - it probably comes down to whatever was available at the time. They do not seem common to a certain stage in production. Thanks for your kind comments BTW.

Kind regards,

John

[webman]

Details of my MkI pistols

1 - SN 9530 - British Patent on breech block without trigger adjustment.

2 - SN 25820 - International Patents with WEBLEY AIR PISTOL MARK I on RHS of cylinder and non locking trigger adjuster.

3 - SN 47130 - International Patents with WEBLEY AIR PISTOL MARK I on RHS of cylinder and locking trigger adjuster. Twin bung model.

SN 25820 has the cone shaped adjuster rather than the expected fillister-headed one.

I would also like to say how informative and interesting your series was on the Mark II Service rifle. I'd never really had a good look at mine, and found that it too had a tapered barrel. The extra data on assembly numbering of parts was completely new to me.

Ian

[AC99]

Hi John,
All three of my straight wooden grip Mk1's are in the s/no range 42000-50000.

Both those with s/no's 42019 & 44745 have the same markings which correspond to your 14th variant ie International patent stampings, Birmingham address and trigger adjustment locking screw.

No 48316 is however is quite different. It also has a trigger adjustment locking screw but on RHS are GB, USA & Canada patent stampings only. LHS has no patent markings. On RHS (not left) is stamped" Webley & Scott Ltd Birmingham".
The barrel is .177 smooth bore and, interestingly, the barrel is shorter - the muzzle being flush with end of air chamber

I hope this helps!

Aubrey

[Josie & John]

Details of my MkI pistols

1 - SN 9530 - British Patent on breech block without trigger adjustment.

2 - SN 25820 - International Patents with WEBLEY AIR PISTOL MARK I on RHS of cylinder and non locking trigger adjuster.

3 - SN 47130 - International Patents with WEBLEY AIR PISTOL MARK I on RHS of cylinder and locking trigger adjuster. Twin bung model.

SN 25820 has the cone shaped adjuster rather than the expected fillister-headed one.

I would also like to say how informative and interesting your series was on the Mark II Service rifle. I'd never really had a good look at mine, and found that it too had a tapered barrel. The extra data on assembly numbering of parts was completely new to me.

Ian

Thank you Ian,

That is useful and I'm pleased the Service series was of interest. The rifle has always been among my favourites.

Webley seemed to have re drawn or redesigned several Service parts in 1938 and I sometimes wonder how the rifle may have developed, had it not been for the war. I still have a raft of unpublished material on the Service including a comparison test with the contemporary BSA and hope to include this in the second on line issue of Airgun Collector in due course.

Kind regards,

John

[Josie & John]

Hi John,
All three of my straight wooden grip Mk1's are in the s/no range 42000-50000.

Both those with s/no's 42019 & 44745 have the same markings which correspond to your 14th variant ie International patent stampings, Birmingham address and trigger adjustment locking screw.

No 48316 is however is quite different. It also has a trigger adjustment locking screw but on RHS are GB, USA & Canada patent stampings only. LHS has no patent markings. On RHS (not left) is stamped" Webley & Scott Ltd Birmingham".
The barrel is .177 smooth bore and, interestingly, the barrel is shorter - the muzzle being flush with end of air chamber

I hope this helps!

Aubrey

Hi Aubrey,

Your contribution does indeed help as I was hoping someone had the abridged patent variant in their collection. Interesting to learn of the variation in body stampings and the smoothbore barrel. I would be interested if there are other straight grip MkIs with shortened barrels towards the end of production. It is possible the barrel is a later replacement -is it stamped MKI and the calibre? Are there any markings suggesting the smooth bore?

Kind regards,

John